Absolutely it is.
Bio-diesel
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Absolutely it is.
ModMech
Platinum Member
Kubota states essentially the same thing about ULSD as they do for Bio-Diesel, they are not responsible for loss of power, fuel efficiency or damage cause by their use.
So, IMO if you want to use well filtered WVO mixed with some quantity of diesel so it will pour, go for it.
Yes, WVO attracts moisture VERY badly and it should not be left to (decay) and you should use a GOOD water seperator because entrained water can severely damage the fuel system.
BioDiesel is "reformed" WVO or VVO and contains trace amounts of the reforming agent, methanol, which is HIGHLY CORROSIVE. Again, short storage times and good filtration are the keys after good quality contro during the reforming process (unlikely at local vendors).
LOTS of people use WVO in diesels w/o any problem. It is high in cetane number and index, lubricity but lower in total energy per gallon. It does tend to plug nozzle holes over time, but so does regular diesel, WVO just does it a LOT faster. Anything running a Bosch type rotary IP should use extreme caution because the transfer pumps DO NOT like to have to pull fuel to the IP. Doing so will dramatically reduce input shaft bushing and seal life, so keeping the fuel filters fresh and clean is important with these pumps.
So, IMO if you want to use well filtered WVO mixed with some quantity of diesel so it will pour, go for it.
Yes, WVO attracts moisture VERY badly and it should not be left to (decay) and you should use a GOOD water seperator because entrained water can severely damage the fuel system.
BioDiesel is "reformed" WVO or VVO and contains trace amounts of the reforming agent, methanol, which is HIGHLY CORROSIVE. Again, short storage times and good filtration are the keys after good quality contro during the reforming process (unlikely at local vendors).
LOTS of people use WVO in diesels w/o any problem. It is high in cetane number and index, lubricity but lower in total energy per gallon. It does tend to plug nozzle holes over time, but so does regular diesel, WVO just does it a LOT faster. Anything running a Bosch type rotary IP should use extreme caution because the transfer pumps DO NOT like to have to pull fuel to the IP. Doing so will dramatically reduce input shaft bushing and seal life, so keeping the fuel filters fresh and clean is important with these pumps.
I am not planning on running it in my tractors,but in my truck. The inventor of the diesel engine originally planned on running it on peanut oil,his name was Rudolf Diesel. Because of the low cost of fuel oil (3 cents a gallon at the time he went with fuel oil,or as we know today diesel oil) 30 years ago the people at Mother Earth News ran a veggie powered truck all over the USA. If used properly veggie oil will not gum up your engine. Like one poster said(which I already knew about) if you heat the veggie oil and bring it up to temp and switch over,you can run straight veggie as long as you switch back to diesel,to keep the veggie from solidifying. I have little or know concern with the so called hyped up greenies,and have access to a little over 20 gallons a week. I plan on burning it in my truck,and will burn it in my truck. I was simply seeking info from people with knowledgeable info. Some here have knowledge,some have opinions. I know about the lye treatment and thank the person that brought it up. I was just curious if anyone out there was filtering the oil and running a certain amount mixed with pure diesel. Perhaps that is not good to do,I have in the past bought old kerosene tanks with 50 to 100 gallons in them,with out the dye and ran 5 gallons at every tank filling. Back in 1991,Cummins actually suggested running a 50/ 50 mix in the winter time of diesel and kerosene. If I have to process it I will,processing runs between 80 to 95 cents a gallon. I do not know where you are buying your diesel,but on road is any where from 3.00 to 3.19 around here. Off road,the cheapest I can find is 2.39. There is a good savings on veggie oil,well over 1.40 a gallon to 2.30 cents a gallon. I am not going to donate it to the local recycler,that would be nuts. I would use it to burn brush first. I hope some good thoughtful comments come forth,and opinions which are not worth 2 cents are left out. I really want to thank those of you with the great posts,that are addressing my questions. I am going to read more about it,A while back I read a lot about it,but was hoping cheaper ways of doing it have been found. By the way collecting,costs me nothing,I stop at the cafe on the way home. I screen it through cheese cloth. Now I am getting ready to hook up a pump I already have too 2 truck fuel filters,heat it and run it through. If there is no way to blend it on a small percentage,I will process it.
CurlyDave
Elite Member
wampum:
Let me explain a little of my background. I am a Chemical Engineer by training. S.B. degree from M.I.T., Ph.D. from U.C., Berkeley.
While I spent the last 20 years in Aerospace and Optical Engineering, I spent about 15 years before that in more traditional Chemical Engineering jobs, including work with Peterbilt, Cummins, Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel, on diesel engines, and more specifically diesel fuel.
While you are free to value my opinion any way you want, I think it is worth a bit more than 2 cents.
While diesel engines can run on many fuels, the particular ones you own have been optimized over many, many years of experience to run on petroleum based diesel fuel. Sure, they will run on other things, but not as well as on commercial diesel fuel, and there is always some danger of engine damage.
Lastly, any processing of fuel and other flammable oils carries some danger. Doing this in a backyard operation is significantly more hazardous than doing it in a proper oil refinery, which has been designed by engineers and has maintenance, safety, and fire departments on-site. The dangers are both obvious, and much more subtle, including chemical reactions of diesel and vegetable components with materials of construction which can produce extremely dangerous compounds which remain in the process equipment and can react with air to spontaneously ignite.
You can do whatever you want and rely on publications like Mother Earth News. I put a lot more faith in Chemical and Engineering News, The Chemical Engineer's Handbook, and Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials.
If you want to design and operate a facility to process several million gallons per day of vegetable oil and produce biodiesel on an industrial scale, I can help with that. If you want to process a hundred gallons a month in your back yard, my best advice is "don't do this at home".
Let me explain a little of my background. I am a Chemical Engineer by training. S.B. degree from M.I.T., Ph.D. from U.C., Berkeley.
While I spent the last 20 years in Aerospace and Optical Engineering, I spent about 15 years before that in more traditional Chemical Engineering jobs, including work with Peterbilt, Cummins, Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel, on diesel engines, and more specifically diesel fuel.
While you are free to value my opinion any way you want, I think it is worth a bit more than 2 cents.
While diesel engines can run on many fuels, the particular ones you own have been optimized over many, many years of experience to run on petroleum based diesel fuel. Sure, they will run on other things, but not as well as on commercial diesel fuel, and there is always some danger of engine damage.
Lastly, any processing of fuel and other flammable oils carries some danger. Doing this in a backyard operation is significantly more hazardous than doing it in a proper oil refinery, which has been designed by engineers and has maintenance, safety, and fire departments on-site. The dangers are both obvious, and much more subtle, including chemical reactions of diesel and vegetable components with materials of construction which can produce extremely dangerous compounds which remain in the process equipment and can react with air to spontaneously ignite.
You can do whatever you want and rely on publications like Mother Earth News. I put a lot more faith in Chemical and Engineering News, The Chemical Engineer's Handbook, and Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials.
If you want to design and operate a facility to process several million gallons per day of vegetable oil and produce biodiesel on an industrial scale, I can help with that. If you want to process a hundred gallons a month in your back yard, my best advice is "don't do this at home".
Lt CHEG
Platinum Member
Frankly there isn't much more that I can add, CurlyDave brings up some excellent points. About the only thing I'd add is this, the diesel engine as conceived by Rudolf Diesel bears little resemblance to the modern diesel engine that appears in most pickup trucks. While a diesel engine can certainly burn B100 biodiesel, or for that matter waste vegetable oil, the problem is that they are not set up to do so. There are many electronic sensors and computers which manage your engine and keep it operating in a desirable range. When someone designs something, they cannot possibly account for every variable, so they make certain assumptions in order to fix variables. When the engineers who design modern diesel engines design them, they assume that diesel fuel, or B5 or B20 biodiesel will be used depending on the engine. So the computers which manage your engine assume that you're running those fuels. Burning something other than what is recommended by the manufacturer adds some variability to the process and can produce undesirable results. The reason why modern diesels are producing so much more power than ones built even 20 to 25 years ago is not so much because of any major breakthroughs in the basic design of the engine relative to combustion chambers, valves, cylinder heads, etc. it is more because we have computers which are able to make millions of decisions every second to enhance the performance of the engine based upon the current conditions that it is experiencing. Because of that I like to keep feeding an engine what it was designed for from the factory.
Now having said that, I'd be much more inclined to use waste vegetable oil or higher quantities of bio diesel in an older engine, like the old ford 6.9 liter diesel which relied on much less electronic control. Still, I doubt I would use higher than 20% biodiesel in any diesel engine, particularly in my case living in the northeast where the temps are lower and the increased propensity for biodiesel to wax up is a very real concern. I don't have a PhD in chemical engineering, just a BS in chemical engineering so CurlyDave's training and experience is definitely superior to mine, but I agree with what he said and believe that his advice is definitely valuable.
dmccarty
Super Star Member
Amen. To process a few gallons a month at home costs how much money? And how much time? Northern sells "turn key" WVO to bio diesel processors. One has to burn ALOT of diesel and have free inputs to get a return on that expense.
Let me just say that my county has some "interesting" people. We have a company that sells Biodiesel. They supposedly make it now. Most of it was trucked in. When they started processing Bio they had to get rid of the waste....
The town has had problems for years meeting waste water quality standards. My take on reading about the problem over the years is that the plant was built using a certain technology and the state changed the rules on them. The town has gotten the waste water to standards but it has been expensive and time consuming.
Our local Biodiesel maker was dumping his waste products into the sewer.
His quote, which I have to paraphrase was, "I thought everyone was cool with it." The town said it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to clean up the pipes. But he is saving the world....Since this guy had good connections with the local government I am not sure if he ever paid for the cleanup. I never heard who paid and I sure was watching to see.
But he had a Ph.d too. Course it was from a diploma mill....
I looked long and hard at making biodiesel at home. There just was no way it would save money. Having some not nice chemicals around was not a good idea either. I don't have a sewer to dump the waste product so that would be another problem.
Putting WVO in a diesel is possible. I have read of lots of people doing so including a guy in my area. To do it right takes money to modify the truck. To buy brand new injectors for my truck is over $1,600. Plus labor to put them in service.
Putting in WVO full of acids and who knows what else that cannot be filtered into a engine worth over 10K is not happening on my truck.
Our local Community College has had classes on converting diesels to run WVO. They are using old diesels from the 80's and earlier.
Later,
Dan
J
JCB
Guest
Dave,
Your second post was much better than your first. Like most things there are many reasons for and against this type project, and you enumerated a couple reasons in the case against fairly well. It's a good reminder that yes the conversion process of WVO to Bio is a nasty process and not the kind of stuff you really want around kids or pets. And yeah you gave a good reminder that today's engines with oxygen sensors, catalytic converters susceptible gaskets and the like are really optimized to run on fossil fuel. And yeah a person needs to be using a LOT of fuel to make the economics of buying a mill to work out in your favor.
About the only place you missed the mark was in your first post. While 130 gallons truly is a drop in the bucket, saving two barrels of diesel fuel DOES matter. There are lots of reasons to want to burn WVO. Finite resources, foreign oil, and energy independence just being a couple of them. For some people, just being a little resourceful and the experience of figuring out how to make a WVO project work is the reward itself.
All that said, your final point of "If you want to process a hundred gallons a month in your back yard, my best advice is "don't do this at home", is well taken. It's a good point. Thanks for the post.
Joe
Your second post was much better than your first. Like most things there are many reasons for and against this type project, and you enumerated a couple reasons in the case against fairly well. It's a good reminder that yes the conversion process of WVO to Bio is a nasty process and not the kind of stuff you really want around kids or pets. And yeah you gave a good reminder that today's engines with oxygen sensors, catalytic converters susceptible gaskets and the like are really optimized to run on fossil fuel. And yeah a person needs to be using a LOT of fuel to make the economics of buying a mill to work out in your favor.
About the only place you missed the mark was in your first post. While 130 gallons truly is a drop in the bucket, saving two barrels of diesel fuel DOES matter. There are lots of reasons to want to burn WVO. Finite resources, foreign oil, and energy independence just being a couple of them. For some people, just being a little resourceful and the experience of figuring out how to make a WVO project work is the reward itself.
All that said, your final point of "If you want to process a hundred gallons a month in your back yard, my best advice is "don't do this at home", is well taken. It's a good point. Thanks for the post.
Joe
charlz
Elite Member
Maybe building a WVO burning shop heater would be a better way to go?
Your first post did not address my question,it basically said just do not do it. Your second post covered your background and then said do not do it. I do not have any chemical degrees but do have years of experience burning hazardous waste. Before I retired with 38 years of service,we burned thousands of gallons a day of hazardous waste in 3 cement kilns. I had over 20 years in management and was one of the first one approached if we did anything illegal or out of compliance. My question was simple,but I will restate it. I asked basically if anyone was using veggie oil in place of diesel. I was curious if anyone was running it straight,after filtering and heating it. And if anyone was mixing small amounts,with diesel,or if they had found an easier way to process it. I do not care to hear someone tell me not to do it,because I am going to do it. Those type of answers are opinions,I was asking for knowledgeable,people with first hand experience of using veggie oil. I do not mean to take anything away from your degree,but thousands of Americans are doing this across the country. Here is a guy using grease to run his cars McDonald?s franchisee runs cars on fry fuel - Green Machines- msnbc.com Here is a link about McDonald's in England using Veggie oil McDonald's will make biodiesel from its own waste grease for trucking fleet — Autoblog Green The private guy uses the Greasecar system. This is what I am interested in anyone who has made their own system or bought one and how it works for them. It kind of looks like when its filtered and used properly that there is no problem with it.
lilranch2001
Super Member
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I dunno, I am just an old country bumpkin from Indiana, but I am smart enough to listen to people who are a whole lot smarter n me
