BLACK OIL QUESTION

Iowachild · Mar 28, 2006

At least here in Michigan, the difference between "off road" and "on road" diesel, aside from the road use tax is only red dye. 

I work for an oil refinery in PA. The only difference in on and off road diesel is the red dye. It's all about taxes folks! We are at this time in the midst of a turn-around on our large diesel hydrotreating unit to ready it to produce ultra low sulfur diesel. My understanding is LSD was 0.05% sulfur (or 500 ppm) down to 15 ppm for the ULSD.

5030 · Mar 28, 2006

Iowachild:

Nice rack and I don't mean anything personal /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Used to haul refinery products years ago when it was top load bottom unload, pre vapor recovery. Along comes the EPA, Haz-Mat Endorsements and a bunch of extra work.

LBrown59 · Apr 2, 2006

( At least here in Michigan, the difference between "off road" and "on road" diesel, aside from the road use tax is only red dye. 

I work for an oil refinery in PA.
1* The only difference in on and off road diesel is the red dye.
2*It's all about taxes folks! . )
------------
1*Yep and the dye don't change the sulfur content of the diesel fuel.
2*Exactly.

5030 · Apr 2, 2006

LBrown:

I still maintain that if our founding fathers were around today, they'd roll over in their graves.

I don't think that what the Gummit is today is what they envisioned. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Builder · Apr 2, 2006

( Mr. Pup:

At least here in Michigan, the difference between "off road" and "on road" diesel, aside from the road use tax is only red dye.

All diesel sold here is LSD. 1-01-2007 will be ULSD. There is going to be a lot of leaky pumps in 2007 as well as scored injector tips. )

Yeah when Katrina hit they were letting us run red for a while here in PA.

ULSD is scaring me. What's it gonna do to my DT466? It's my baby and I don't want her gettin' hurt. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Should I start adding any diesel additives like Howes, etc. in the summer instead of just winter?

5030 · Apr 2, 2006

L39Builder:

Your DT466 will suffer injector cup blues and a leaking pump most likely.

There is a much cheaper way to achieve lubrication and that is good old Dextron/Mercon ATF. A quart to 100 gallons of ULSD should do the trick. All the Caterpillar certified mechanics at work agree on that. I add it to my bulk tank as well as a cup or two of Lucas fuel conditioner.

I have also heard that B20 will provide lubrication but until the Gummit gets the cost of B20 in line with No.2, I'll use the ATF and Lucas....it's cheaper.

Builder · Apr 3, 2006

Thanks Darrel,

I had heard of guys adding ATF to diesel, but never tried it. I've only used additives. I guess it'll soon be time to add the ATF!

BryanMA · Apr 3, 2006

As for the black oil, if you were driving diesels 20 years ago, this was they way they all were. The two big things that changed that were turbochargers and electronic injection controls. Modern auto/truck diesels are all electronically controlled and are "drive by wire" there is no accelerator cable anymore. The diesels in the tractors are pretty much using 20 year old technology, and would not be allowed on the road. As for lubrication in diesel, one of the best is biodiesel. It may become common to run 2-3% biodiesel with the ultra low sulfur fuel for lube purposes.

-bryan

Builder · Apr 3, 2006

Less than that. Even 15 years ago. My '92 is a mechanical diesel. I think IH ran them into '95.

Some CATs may have gone to '96+/-.

Ob1kubota · Apr 3, 2006

Bryan what is the lubricating ingredient in Bio? Animal fat?
All of my ComEd 6.0s spend more time in the shop than on the job because the Bio keeps the fuel filters plugged. Seimen's can't reman injectors quick enough for the FORD G-2 system. Hello vitron plungers 2007 EPA particulate filtered road dog diesels ULSD fuels. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

SkyPup · Apr 4, 2006

The lubricating molecules in biodiesel are fatty acid methyl esters, and yes they do clog fuel filters and attact water in a real big way, also it is often contaminated with glycerin, methanol, sodium hydroxide and lots of undesireable microorganisms..... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

BryanMA · Apr 4, 2006

Yes, I believe the lubricant is fatty acids that is the lubricant. In any case, from what I hear you get all of the goodness (lubricant) running 2-3% without the problems (eating fuel system components, extreme cleaning, clouding etc). At 20%+ a number of fleets have had issues. Especially at first when it cleans out the fuel system, and for trucks that spend most of their time sitting (fire, dpw etc). Getting to 2% would involve developing a huge industry that is currently only in its infancy - so don't expect it to happen overnight.

Again, this is all what I hear. I have run biodiesel blends in the summer without a problem. YMMV

As for black oil, my experience with '70s and '80s Peugeots and Mercedes (no turbo) was after starting engine to check for leaks, the oil would be black. Made it real easy to check the dipstick...

Muleskinner · Apr 10, 2006

Interesting follow up to this post. I put eleven hours on a brand new JD 210LE last week on a demo. I checked the oil when I was done and found it was so clear I could hardly see it on the dip stick. Go figure. It is a direct injection engine.

HGM · Apr 11, 2006

( Interesting follow up to this post. I put eleven hours on a brand new JD 210LE last week on a demo. I checked the oil when I was done and found it was so clear I could hardly see it on the dip stick. Go figure. It is a direct injection engine. )

I believe that DI plays a big part in it but if you compare an older engine to a new one, you also have previous change intervals to account for. It the previous owner believed in excessive change intervals and did allot of idling and cold run, start, stops it will be black soon.. Things are progressing very quickly in the diesel market. ULSD is coming (already here in some areas) and again there will be a difference in on and off road fuel for a while(to my understanding)... Additives will be a good idea, bio remains a bad idea(until they get the temperature sensitivity and filtering under control) and we havent seen anything yet.. Between '07 and '10 regulations demanding 95% less sulfer(each) and less particulate matter in the exhaust we'll be seeing longer change intervals and more exact controls of fuel delivery and combustion resulting in less soot. Diesel technology is jumping from the early 20th century really fast and our oil will be less black as a result/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.. Its a good thing...

5030 · Apr 12, 2006

The BAD thing is the sulfur (sic) is the lubricating media for the pumps and injectors and even electronically controlled diesels like the new Caterpillar and the DDECIII engines still rely on mechanical injection (controlled by electronics). The sulfur lubricates the sliding surfaces in the injectors and the absence of it will be detrimental to the life of the (expensive) units.

Pre-electronic controlled injection engines (and they are still the majority of on road engines "in trucks") are really at a disadvantage as well as your diesel tractor. Without an additive in the ULSD fuel, accelerated wear to the mechanical parts of the fuel system will take it's toll quickly. Our CAT certified mechanics are recommending Dexron/Mercon ATF at a quart to 100 gallons as a supplemental lubricant.

In so much as the technology of diesel fuel systems and particulate emissions advancing quickly, the real world scenario is that these engines are actually less efficient than their predecessors in converting fuel into usable energy. That comes as less fuel mileage.

Of course trucking companies aren't too concerned that the new generation engines return poor fuel mileage as all companies including ours tack on a fuel surcharge to compensate for that. You are paying for that at the grocery store and any other goods you purchase.

To give you an idea, my new Caterpillar 450 horse compound turbocharged electronically controlled diesel averages 5.0 mpg.

In 1978, my NTC 855/350 Cummins turbocharged/aftercooled mechanically injected diesel got 4.5 mpg.

Fuel in 1978 was 0.65 cents per gallon on road
Fuel in 2006 is 2.65 cents per gallon on road

Get my point. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Muleskinner · Apr 12, 2006

The manufactures of both tractors and over the road trucks using mechanical injection pumps, electronically or mechanically controlled, need to take a clue from Cummins, Ford Powerstroke, Chevrolet Duramax, Etc and go to a common rail injection system. The common rail injection system works just like a gas engine electronic fuel injection system, in that it pressures up the fuel injection system with a HIGH pressure fuel pump in the tank or on the frame. Going to this system completly eliminates the mechanical injection pump and all of the lubrication problems associated with low sulfur fuel. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The new 04 and up Cummins engines in the Dodge trucks use it, so does the Ford Powerstroke and the Chevy Duramax. This is a great system, in that it is very controllable and does not use a mechanical injection pump, electronically controlled or otherwise. Hint,,no more injection pump failures at $3000.00 a wack!

I looked at the JD mechanical fuel injection pump on the 210LE and discovered it is electronically controlled by the computer and is a drive by wire system. Clean system, but you still have a mechanical pump to deal with! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I will be interested to see if Kubota's new M series tractor's direct injection engine will be a common rail system or an electronically controlled mechanical pump.

HGM · Apr 12, 2006

( The manufactures of both tractors and over the road trucks using mechanical injection pumps, electronically or mechanically controlled, need to take a clue from Cummins, Ford Powerstroke, Chevrolet Duramax, Etc and go to a common rail injection system. The common rail injection system works just like a gas engine electronic fuel injection system, in that it pressures up the fuel injection system with a HIGH pressure fuel pump in the tank or on the frame. Going to this system completly eliminates the mechanical injection pump and all of the lubrication problems associated with low sulfur fuel. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The new 04 and up Cummins engines in the Dodge trucks use it, so does the Ford Powerstroke and the Chevy Duramax. This is a great system, in that it is very controllable and does not use a mechanical injection pump, electronically controlled or otherwise. Hint,,no more injection pump failures at $3000.00 a wack!

I looked at the JD mechanical fuel injection pump on the 210LE and discovered it is electronically controlled by the computer and is a drive by wire system. Clean system, but you still have a mechanical pump to deal with! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I will be interested to see if Kubota's new M series tractor's direct injection engine will be a common rail system or an electronically controlled mechanical pump. )

Kind of......

The PowerStoke is HEUI, the intensifier piston in the HEUI injector will take a beating if its too bad, but they have a tungston carbide coating on them to help them live.. Next year with the 6.4L PS we'll get the common rail.. Current version doesnt have a mechanical fuel pump, but the common rail will.. How else could we get 28,000psi fuel pressure?

No offence Daryl, I hear what your saying and partially agree but I dont think its going to be that bad.. How could the fuel companies produce a fuel that 99% of its market cannot use without causing damage to their engines? You may be totally right, I just havent excepted it yet... Either way, I will be runnning a fuel lubricity additive in my stuff... BTW, California has been using the ULSD for about a year or two now and the sky hasnt fallen..

SkyPup · Apr 13, 2006

California (the largest diesel market in North America), Texas (the second largest diesel market in North America), and all of Europe have been using ULSD for years without any problems what so ever.

>50% of all motorized vehicles in Europe are TurboDiesels, while less than 0.5% of all motorized vehicles in North America are TurboDiesels.

Yet all those TurboDiesels have been running just fine on ULSD for years and years and years, even though the price of diesel fuel is >$6 USD per gallon! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif