Bought me a Dell!

[Dargo]

Well, I still one day may try an Apple, but I'll have to stand by everything I said. From personal experience, I still have to disagree with everything you said about them trying to oppose what I said. They are quite a bit more expensive for what you get, everything is integrated in them and you can't make upgrades as needed, and because of that, they just become obsolete. It is exactly for these reasons that our school corporation (who always used Apple computers) finally dropped them a couple of years ago. Sorry, nothing against your Macs, but they are still priced and designed for the market who will pay the premium to have Apple. I've built thousands of computers, it's just flat a fact that you cannot upgrade an Apple like a PC, and they cost more for what you get.

 

[gsxr1100]

I must agree. I guy here at work loves Mac’s since they are great for graphics (which I agree). But as you noted every few years he needs to upgrade when just spent like $5K a few years ago. That to me is flat out a design based solely on greed.

 

[Boondox]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I always wanted to try a Mac, but I still can't justify the premium price for what you get. The software selection has gotten more reasonable for them, but their prices are still out of the realm of possibility for me. I can't believe they still don't have the ability to upgrade their machines much at all. I suppose they still want you to throw them away rather than upgrade your aging Apple. )</font>

After years of using PCs, my wife last year made the switch to a Mac G4. She loved it from the start -- but. Yesterday she had her THIRD hard drive failure in one year!!! She's so frustrated she's seriously thinking of going back to a Dell PC.

 

[Dargo]

I would think that would be unusual. I've heard good things about the Macs. It's just their price for what you get and the very limited ability to upgrade with the times that prevent me from trying one. Hopefully she gets it worked out. Having a hard drive crash is a disaster!!

I'm going to do a backup right now! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I was a confirmed Windows user all the way back to the very first commercial version, got fed up with the poor graphics editing software and switched to Apple sometime in the very late 1980's. Eventually migrated back to Windows and stayed there for a few years but got fed up with the constant system crashes. Switched back to Apple about 10 years ago and have been using them ever since. Currently have 2 G4 towers, a G4 12" PowerBook and the lovely Mrs_Bob has a 15" G3 laptop too. We use Windows at work, mostly on Dell desktops and IBM laptops, but then there is my Apple PowerBook! So I have pretty good exposure to both operating systems, I help train some of the Windows users on some applications (Word and Outlook).

As it goes, I've never had a repair to any Apple system that was not caused by the user (lovely Mrs_Bob broke a power adapter inside the computer, lightning strike, etc). System crashes, on Apple are very very rare, virtually non-existant since switching to OS X a couple years ago. I don't see that reliability in any Windows computer we use here. I'm not saying Apple is perfect, but there is plenty of software out there that fullfill 100% of the needs of 90% of the users out there, even business users like me. What I like is that things typically work and they work without having to adjust all sorts of settings, new hardware can be added without needing to install it, and while some of the Windows systems seem to do some of that, I don't see Windows operating as seamlessly, easily, etc. Again, Apple is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good.

Dargo, by the way, I find that the need to upgrade is negligable with the Mac OS, they don't seem to keep upping the ante the way Windows software does. Bear in mind, I am not a gamer, and I understand that games can push the system technology to the point of needing frequent upgrades? Just not something I do.

 

[Devildog]

Congrats on the Dell Dude. We have 4 in the house and mine being the oldest with no problems. The reason I went with dell is we have them at work and out of all the years not one has gone down. I have owned 2 parkard ****s 1 compaq 1 emachine and 1 hp. With the exception on the hp the others crapped out on us so that is when we ended up with a dell. I think you will enjoy that Dell.......Dude /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[rswyan]

Brent,

I don't really want to get into a ****ing match over this - and I hope you do try a Mac someday .... you might like it.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( From personal experience, I still have to disagree with everything you said about them trying to oppose what I said. )</font>
What specifically is your personal experience with Macs ?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( They are quite a bit more expensive for what you get, )</font>
Depends on what you get - I've seen comparisions where a comparably equipped Dell was several thousand more than a Mac - by the time you added everything that the Mac came with stock.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( everything is integrated in them and you can't make upgrades as needed, )</font>
What is "integrated in them" specifically that can't be upgraded ?

Again I ask - What specifically is it that you are looking to upgrade ?

Processors ? Video card ? Hard drive controller ? Hard drives ? Networking ? Wireless ? Sound ?

Better yet - you tell me exactly what can't be upgraded ...... specifically I mean.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( and because of that, they just become obsolete. )</font>
Ok, so you never tried a Mac - so what are you basing this on if not your personal experience with Macs ?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It is exactly for these reasons that our school corporation (who always used Apple computers) finally dropped them a couple of years ago. )</font>
I've been down this road - often times these switches have nothing to do with "becoming obselete". Quite often they have to do with:

1. School districts being sold a bill of goods about PC's being "cheaper" Often the intial outlay for the machines is cheaper (but that all depends on whether or one is comparing comparable machines - in some cases they aren't cheaper) but what ISN'T cheaper is the TCO (total cost of ownership) - the support costs on Windows tend to be higher (afterall they need all that upgrading) and require more IT support personnel.

2. A biased school IT administrator comes in/gets appointed and decides to standardize on PC's "to save money" and get rid of any Apple gear. He/she is a riding a hobbyhorse and pushing an agenda because of personal bias - I have seen it rise to almost to the level of holy war. Generally the IT folks involved have little or no Mac experience. Often in these cases you will find that the staff that actually use the Macs don't them taken away.

3. Generous subsidies/freebies from the computer manufacturers and software developers (like Dell and Microsoft.) These folks being fairly savvy, have figured out that the PR point of Apple having a high share of the education market is dangerous to them, as dangerous as having a significant portion of the up and coming computer users being familiar with the Mac OS. They are spending very heavily to counter Apple's traditional presence in the education arena.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sorry, nothing against your Macs, but they are still priced and designed for the market who will pay the premium to have Apple. )</font>
Yeah - that is no doubt true. There is a segment of the computer buying public that operates off the value proposition - they aren't after the cheapest thing out there and the see value (price vs. what you get) as being their motivation. Some portion of that public buys Apple because they see it as a value, others buy Dell, HP , etc. for similar reasons. This situation holds true for many consumer products. It's the reason I bought a Lincoln welder instead of a Chicago Electric from Harbor Freight.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I've built thousands of computers, it's just flat a fact that you cannot upgrade an Apple like a PC, )</font>
Ok, so now it's "you cannot upgrade an Apple like a PC" (thanks heavens that one doesn't have to ) - it's not that they aren't upgradable at all - which was the general impression you gave in your first post on the subject.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( and they cost more for what you get. )</font>
Not always true. And there is something to be said for a single source being responsible for the design and developement of the hardware and the operating system and being able to integrate that into a workable system (notice I said workable, not perfect.) So yeah, in some cases maybe you pay a little more - but the key question is "What is that buying you ?"

Until one explores that question in some detail, from an unbiased viewpoint, one never really knows. JMHO.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I guy here at work loves Mac’s since they are great for graphics (which I agree). )</font>
Yup - they are - and a number of other computationally-intensive taks as well.

Virginia Tech G5 Supercomputer

US Army Mac Super Computer (1500+ G5's)

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But as you noted every few years he needs to upgrade when just spent like $5K a few years ago. )</font>
What does that $5K include - probably alot more than just the computer itself I'd imagine, since the most expensive Apple G5 box is less than $3K ($2999.) FYI, the cheapest G5 is $1499 and the cheapest current Mac is $499.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( That to me is flat out a design based solely on greed. )</font>
Well if you ask me, I'd say that the greed is on the part of the guy there at your work - to have the latest and greatest. I assume that no one is holding a gun to his head making him upgrade. Of course it ain't his money that he's spending.

As a user with fairly demanding needs in terms of computing power I'm still using a several yearold computer as my main unit (the rest are slaves on the render farm) and getting by - it just isn't as fast as the current models. Would it be nice to have a faster unit ? Sure you bet .

Assigning blame to Apple for producing newer, faster models and then marketing them is the not the correct target here. I'd hate to think what you'd be saying if they weren't producing them.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( After years of using PCs, my wife last year made the switch to a Mac G4. She loved it from the start -- but. Yesterday she had her THIRD hard drive failure in one year!!! )</font>
Like Brent says that is very unusual.

I know that the HD manufacturers have really cheapened up on their products, as evidenced by the fact they were all cutting back on the warranty coverage in the last couple of years.

It's either really, really bad luck - or some other related component is causing a premature failure.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Again, Apple is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good. )</font>
Same feelings here - Apple has occassionally done some pretty stupid stuff, and have produced some dog machines in the past (not recently though.)

They really lost their way when Steve Jobs was ousted back quite a few years ago .... and then found it again when he came back. It's the vision thing.