Branson 2910i, starts rough

[thistlemagnate]

How easily does your Branson start?

I have a new Branson 2910i, it had spent a year on the dealer's lot.
With a block temperature of 35 F and glow plugs on for 12 seconds
(turn the key on three times, no waiting with glow plugs off), it just
barely starts in a cloud of white smoke with one cylinder firing.
Might be 20 seconds before all three cylinders are firing.
Opening the throttle above idle does not seem to help.
Once warmed up, I have no complaints. Starts easily and has
plenty of power. This tractor has the auxiliary fuel pump.

Both the dealer and Branson technical support have suggested
rough starting is typical of the 2910, unlike the 3510.
Dealer has been trying to fix it by adjusting the injector timing,
unplugging the coolant temperature sensor for longer glow plug
times, and a fuel additive.

Should I expect all cylinders to fire when it first starts up?
If it starts this hard now, should I plan on far worse as the
years go by?

The dealer has suggested the cylinder it starts on is the cylinder ready
for the compression stroke when it was last parked, the other cylinders
see cold air not warmed by the glow plugs.
Is there an easy way to determine which cylinders are firing
as it starts? Would be interesting to see if it is always
the same cylinder.

The dealer has replaced all the glow plugs and cleaned the connections
along the glow plug bus bar. One of the original glow plugs had
corroded threads, perhaps due to moisture entering the cylinder through
an open exhaust valve last winter. Is this indicative of further trouble
in that cylinder?

I measured just under 20 amps into the glow plug bus bar with a clamp
type ammeter when the key was first turned on, falling to about 10 amps
after 10 seconds of heating. The fuse for the glow plugs sees about
0.2 amps, as it is only powering a relay.

 

[Lunk]

How easily does your Branson start?

I have a new Branson 2910i, it had spent a year on the dealer's lot.
With a block temperature of 35 F and glow plugs on for 12 seconds
(turn the key on three times, no waiting with glow plugs off), it just
barely starts in a cloud of white smoke with one cylinder firing.
Might be 20 seconds before all three cylinders are firing.
Opening the throttle above idle does not seem to help.
Once warmed up, I have no complaints. Starts easily and has
plenty of power. This tractor has the auxiliary fuel pump.

Both the dealer and Branson technical support have suggested
rough starting is typical of the 2910, unlike the 3510.
Dealer has been trying to fix it by adjusting the injector timing,
unplugging the coolant temperature sensor for longer glow plug
times, and a fuel additive.

Should I expect all cylinders to fire when it first starts up?
If it starts this hard now, should I plan on far worse as the
years go by?

The dealer has suggested the cylinder it starts on is the cylinder ready
for the compression stroke when it was last parked, the other cylinders
see cold air not warmed by the glow plugs.
Is there an easy way to determine which cylinders are firing
as it starts? Would be interesting to see if it is always
the same cylinder.

The dealer has replaced all the glow plugs and cleaned the connections
along the glow plug bus bar. One of the original glow plugs had
corroded threads, perhaps due to moisture entering the cylinder through
an open exhaust valve last winter. Is this indicative of further trouble
in that cylinder?

I measured just under 20 amps into the glow plug bus bar with a clamp
type ammeter when the key was first turned on, falling to about 10 amps
after 10 seconds of heating. The fuse for the glow plugs sees about
0.2 amps, as it is only powering a relay.

I've got 40 hours on my 3510 now, and it's always started immediately and smoothly, until this last weekend when I started it in 29 degree temps. It took probably 5-10 sec for it to even out and there was definitely some white smoke at first.

I've got a block heater, and expect that I'll be using it from here on out until Springtime. I'll pllug it in when I get home from work, and by the time I change clothes and putz aroung getting ready ('bout an hour), It should be warmed up enough for an easy start. I'll use it longer in the real cold. I don't know where you're at climate-wise, but if it gets cold often (well below freezing), I'd sure invest in a block-heater. Diesels will start without them, but IMHO it's not worth the abuse a cold start can inflict on components.

I'm sure we'll hear from some other brand - owner out there whose tractor will always start at 20 below on just the glow-plugs, and never miss a beat, but to me that's like having someone kick you in the gnads to prove / because you can take it. I even use a block-heater on my car (04 Crown Vic), and it takes only about 1/4 mile for it to be blowing warm air on the coldest days (-20 or so). It doesn't need it start for sure, but I know the car appreciates it, as well as me.

Good luck with your issue. I hope they get it sorted out for you. These tractors are awesome. I've already put more hours on mine in the last 6 mo than I put on my old one in a full year, and I don't use it nearly as much as I'd like to!

Lunk

 

[Zork]

Both the dealer and Branson technical support have suggested
rough starting is typical of the 2910, unlike the 3510.
Dealer has been trying to fix it by adjusting the injector timing,
unplugging the coolant temperature sensor for longer glow plug
times, and a fuel additive. MAYBE COMPRESSION. LONGER GP TIMES CAN CAUSE FAILURE OF GP AND CYL. You need to address this soon, because a cylinder could have low compression (cracked rings/cracked piston) and it would further damage the cyl. walls and ruin your engine.

Should I expect all cylinders to fire when it first starts up? YES
If it starts this hard now, should I plan on far worse as the
years go by? YES, IF IT IS COMPRESSION, NOT IF IT IS SOMETHING SIMPLE- GP'S, FUEL, HOSES, AIR IN FUEL. Cold/Start problems can also be caused by air in the fuel line, check hose connections, and it appears that the fitting on the supply side of the filter is pressed and glued in. Mine came off when I did a fuel pump replacement.

The dealer has suggested the cylinder it starts on is the cylinder ready
for the compression stroke when it was last parked, the other cylinders
see cold air not warmed by the glow plugs. PROPERLY OPERATING GP'S SHOULD TAKE CARE OF THIS
Is there an easy way to determine which cylinders are firing
as it starts? Would be interesting to see if it is always
the same cylinder. YES, LOOSEN THE METAL FUEL LINE TO THE INJECTOR. IF SHUTS OFF/ RPM DROPS, CYL IS FIRING.

The dealer has replaced all the glow plugs and cleaned the connections
along the glow plug bus bar. One of the original glow plugs had
corroded threads, perhaps due to moisture entering the cylinder through
an open exhaust valve last winter. THREADS MIGHT BE CORRODED BY WATER FROM TOP, WAS THE TIP OF THE GP ELEMENT ALL RUSTED? MOISTURE. Is this indicative of further trouble
in that cylinder? DO NOT KNOW. IF COMPRESSION IS FINE-I WOULD THINK NO.

I measured just under 20 amps into the glow plug bus bar with a clamp
type ammeter when the key was first turned on, falling to about 10 amps
after 10 seconds of heating. The fuse for the glow plugs sees about
0.2 amps, as it is only powering a relay. ANSWER: I would check to see if all of the glow plugs have the same resistance/amp draw. The bar on the glow plugs is nice and neat but it limits your ability to isolate a bad plug. Since I haven't had problems yet, I have not made any changes, but on other diesels I have removed the bar and connected individual wires so that each plug could be tested individually and quickly. Typically, if GP's, compression, and fuel QUALITY are alright, you should have no problems- BARRING WORN DAMAGED PARTS. Hope this helps.

 

[SnowRidge]

The white smoke is a fog of unignited diesel fuel. You are getting it because one or more cylinders aren't firing, which you already know. They aren't firing because the cylinder temperature is too low. That can caused by a number of things.

1. Low compression.

2. Defective glow plug(s).

3. Insufficient glow plug on time.

4. Ambient temperature just plain too low for the machine (design issue).

Since this is a new machine, low compression seems unlikely. The glow plugs have been replaced, and their connections have been checked. I suspect that either the plugs aren't staying on long enough, or it is just plain too cold for the engine as designed and built.

There are a couple of things that you can try. You can spin it over a few times and let it sit for 30 seconds or so before trying to start it. This will give the cylinders a little bit of preheat from compressing the air. Letting it sit for a short while will give the heat time to spread to the metal parts.

Preheating the intake will help, if you can do it safely. Something like an electric heater positioned so that hot air is blown into the intake for a couple of minutes might work. In the old days, when everything was metal, some folks would play a blowtorch into their diesel intakes to get them warm enough to start. I don't recommend you go that far.

I think you can rule out air in the lines and that sort of thing. The white smoke is a solid indicator that you have fuel and it is being atomized properly. The dealer playing with injector timing bothers me. Sounds to me like he is shotgunning it. Is this dealer new to tractors and diesel engines?

Personally, if Branson is saying that engine is naturally rough starting when it is cold, they are really saying it won't start in very cold weather. The simplest solution is probably a block heater. If you can't find one to fit, you could probably find a heater to fit the lower radiator hose. In any event, you need to find some way to keep that engine above the outdoor temperatures.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I recently purchased the 2910i about 2 months ago. When it is warm out, the tractor starts fine, but when it is 5C or colder out, I experience the exact same thing. I have spoken to my dealer and he mentioned the 2910's he has sold all seem to do this, and the 3510 for some reason doesn't experience this issue!
What I have been doing myself was cycling the glow plugs twice, but maybe I will try 3 times to see if this will help. Mine apparenlty has a block heater installed and the dealer said if it didn't to call as he would install it ASAP as he said it would be included. My issue is I leave the tractor in a large equipment shed far from the house with no power.
This has probably been my only real disappointment with this machine. I have been purchasing implements as of late which my wife says is going to put us in the poor house! I am just having too much fun with it, and can't get enough hours myself! Problem is since she is home, she is putting as many hours on herself for little projects.

If there is a solution to this I would be interested in finding out myself!

Cheers,

Dale

 

[Lunk]

I recently purchased the 2910i about 2 months ago. When it is warm out, the tractor starts fine, but when it is 5C or colder out, I experience the exact same thing. I have spoken to my dealer and he mentioned the 2910's he has sold all seem to do this, and the 3510 for some reason doesn't experience this issue!
What I have been doing myself was cycling the glow plugs twice, but maybe I will try 3 times to see if this will help. Mine apparenlty has a block heater installed and the dealer said if it didn't to call as he would install it ASAP as he said it would be included. My issue is I leave the tractor in a large equipment shed far from the house with no power.
This has probably been my only real disappointment with this machine. I have been purchasing implements as of late which my wife says is going to put us in the poor house! I am just having too much fun with it, and can't get enough hours myself! Problem is since she is home, she is putting as many hours on herself for little projects.

If there is a solution to this I would be interested in finding out myself!

Cheers,

Dale

If running power to the shed is cost prohibitive, round up a used generator and use that to power your block heater. An hour or so prior to use should do it for you.

On the other hand, then you'd have another engine to maintain / take care of...

 

[jhkfarms]

There is a post on 5-1-08 by a wiskeydelta talking about his 2910 being hard to start. Talks about a Glow Plug Control Box. Take a look, see if this might be your problem.
JHK Farms

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Lunk,

This is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Using a small genny to plug the block heater into. It is just that I hate that it starts and runs so good in warm temps, but when it isn't even below freezing it is this hard to start.

jhkfarms,

I will check to see if the black glowplug box is mounted on the firewall. Since mine is brand new, and I know it was a recent shipment so I would think it would not have this issue?? I will see this weekend if that is the answer.

Cheers,

Dale

 

[SnowRidge]

The 5/1/08 post was regarding a unit that started rough all the time, as far as I can tell. It had a missing glow plug controller. That certainly isn't the case for the OP's machine, since he was able to measure glow plug current.

 

[Zork]

I would think that it should not be an issue at zero degrees.
Have you measured the actual voltage UNDER LOAD at the glow plug bar connection?

 

[SnowRidge]

I would think that it should not be an issue at zero degrees.
Have you measured the actual voltage UNDER LOAD at the glow plug bar connection?

And how would you have him do that? Modern diesels use pulsed glow plugs, unlike older engines which had continuously fed plugs in series with an indicator coil. To measure pulsing DC voltage accurately, you need an oscilloscope. I doubt too many people here have one of those.

Since so many people with the 2910i models are having the identical starting problem, unlike 3510 and 3520 owners, and Branson itself says rough starting is normal, a design problem is indicated. Absent a fix from the factory, running a block heater seems like the best option, as long as power is available.

 

[Zork]

And how would you have him do that? Modern diesels use pulsed glow plugs, unlike older engines which had continuously fed plugs in series with an indicator coil. To measure pulsing DC voltage accurately, you need an oscilloscope I doubt too many people here have one of those.

Since so many people with the 2910i models are having the identical starting problem, unlike 3510 and 3520 owners, and Branson itself says rough starting is normal, a design problem is indicated. Absent a fix from the factory, running a block heater seems like the best option, as long as power is available.

Wow, by your tone it seems to me you are offended- I apologize, please forgive me. If the diesel has GP's with a bar strip connected to all of them with one feed, it isn't a series circuit. I believe this system is a timed relay system, and if you want to call the duration of "power on, power off"- pulsed, be my guest. My understanding of this system is the glow plugs can stay on anywhere from 7 to 30 seconds depending on temperature, it should not be hard to measure either voltage or amperage within that time frame. As far as measuring amperage of DC current, many auto parts stores sell a $29 inductive ammeter that slips over a wire (no piercing required) that can be used very effectively for diagnosing electrical problems within 0-20 and 0-300 amperes, so I don't think you need an oscilloscope after all, as awhole.
Has any competant mechanic checked the advance fuel volume/pressure when it is cold?
I once overheard a service manager tell a customer that the noise they heard from their engine was "normal" for that year production. The truth was, it was piston slap that had not been noted and corrected at the factory and got out to the market- it sure was normal for that run.

 

[kinglberrywork]

Is it possible that this starting issue is due to the 3510 having a larger cylinder size which would result in more fuel being delivered to this cylinder which could make it more capable of creating a combustion at a lower temperature. I assume that basically there is only one real difference between these tractors and that is block/head design to allow larger pistons.

 

[SnowRidge]

Is it possible that this starting issue is due to the 3510 having a larger cylinder size which would result in more fuel being delivered to this cylinder which could make it more capable of creating a combustion at a lower temperature. I assume that basically there is only one real difference between these tractors and that is block/head design to allow larger pistons.

I understand that the 2910i has a different engine than the 3510/20, but I could be wrong.

 

[SnowRidge]

Wow, by your tone it seems to me you are offended- I apologize, please forgive me. If the diesel has GP's with a bar strip connected to all of them with one feed, it isn't a series circuit. I believe this system is a timed relay system, and if you want to call the duration of "power on, power off"- pulsed, be my guest. My understanding of this system is the glow plugs can stay on anywhere from 7 to 30 seconds depending on temperature, it should not be hard to measure either voltage or amperage within that time frame. As far as measuring amperage of DC current, many auto parts stores sell a $29 inductive ammeter that slips over a wire (no piercing required) that can be used very effectively for diagnosing electrical problems within 0-20 and 0-300 amperes, so I don't think you need an oscilloscope after all, as awhole.
Has any competant mechanic checked the advance fuel volume/pressure when it is cold?
I once overheard a service manager tell a customer that the noise they heard from their engine was "normal" for that year production. The truth was, it was piston slap that had not been noted and corrected at the factory and got out to the market- it sure was normal for that run.

Please read the OP's original post. He already stated that he put a clamp on ammeter on his machine. Pulsed means just that. The current is turned on and off rapidly. It does not stay on continuously for the duration of the preheating event. That is why you hear a relay clicking continuously until the engine is ready be started.

The glow plugs are fed in parallel, not series.

 

[kinglberrywork]

I understand that the 2910i has a different engine than the 3510/20, but I could be wrong.

They do have different engines, but those engines are designed to fit into the same frame for the 10 series so their respective wiring, layout, piping/tubing should be essentially the same. The engines for the 20 series would be an altogether different engine although probably similiarly designed but would be based around a different frame size so there would be mitigating factors to consider there as well, plus that frame size starts with a 38 hp engine with and approximate 2L displacement.

The 2910 and 3510 difference should only be the displacement difference which is 280cc, much like the difference between a Chevy 302 and the 350 from the same year of production.

The question I was posing was that would this difference in displacement, which equates to roughly 93cc's per cylinder, be such that due to the increase in amount of fuel injected into the 3510 cylinders as opposed to the 2910 cylinders be enough to promote combustion more effectively at lower temperatures thereby allowing smoother starts. Or could the 3510 simply have a higher compression ratio thereby allowing the combustion to occur.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I checked out my tractor this weekend and it does in fact have the black glowplug box on the firewall and the harness is connected to it. Since I have only had this tractor a short while, and it has less than 15hours on it, my dealer figures it will get easier to start once it is broken it??
I also checked and low and behold the block heater is installed in there and tie wrapped in place. Right now unless I move the tractor into my garage at the house and plug it in always, I will have to use a generator to warm it up in the back machine shed. I really would prefer to not put it in the garage as it is full enough of stuff at the moment!

Cheers,
Dale

 

[Reg]

I am not at all sure of how this factors into the argument about engine differences, but there have been Yanmar, Mitsubishi and Cummins based engines in various models.
It could be that there is more than a simple displacement difference between the 2910 and 3510, e.g. they could be from different base engine designs.

 

[Reg]

For no GOOD reason, other than that I could afford it and had some time to spare, I decided to install a lower radiator hose heater on my 42 HP Kukje/(Cummins design base) Branson/Century tractor.
It starts just fine even when VERY cold, but for about $35 plus tax....
and the fact that I can remember temperatures 20F lower than I have used the tractor at... why not ?

Anyway, PepBoys is quite a way from me, AutoZone doesn't carry them locally and NAPA is just down the street, so it cost about $5 more there.
It is a 400W Katz heater in a NAPA/Belden box and that tractor has a 1 inch I.D. lower hose.
The lower hose has a nearly 7 inch run that is straight and nearly vertical, so no problem with siting it.

I did read the instructions, which said to cut 1 inch out of the hose.
I decided that I knew better (as always) so first put the two hose clamps around the hose before removing it, before even draining the radiator.
A couple of reasons for this;
a) To ensure that I could cut the hose "square across" when ready.
b) To check that the location wouldn't cause any rubbing of heater, hose clamps, cable, or anything else against the radiator shroud or any other parts of the tractor.

Now I MUST REMEMBER that when I cut the hose I must cut on the side of the hose clamps that is BETWEEN the hose clamps - BOTH cuts.

Rewind;
Start by raising the hood & removing the right side panel.
Fast forward; to where I left off.

After a few adjustments of the hose clamps, each time holding the heater up beside the radiator hose and imagining the heater between the two hose clamps, it was time to drain the radiator.
It took a couple of minutes to follow a small hose running from the right bottom outside edge of the radiator forwards to a drain plug.
This is quite elaborate, nicely recessed and guarded against getting sheared off - a neat plastic plug. There is PLENTY of room under it for a 5 gallon bucket, I probably got less than two gallons out and of course it flowed a lot faster as soon as I took the pressure cap off the radiator.
A final snugging up of the hose clamps to make sure they were "square" and wouldn't move when I took the hose off. Another check of the spacing, which turned out to be just about 2 inches. Removed hose and cut it with confidence (& a utility knife) this was NOT reinforced hose and I was pleased to be able to use the metal edges of the hose clamps as guides to get it straight. Yes, I had allowed for moving the clamps out a bit, though I forgot to mention that earlier.
Not much to it from here, just shoved everything together and put hose clamps back, made sure to twist everything back to its original alignment.
Shut the rad drain, refilled and did a minor re-mount of the overflow bottle after I took it out to accept the fluid that wouldn't go in the rad. It will take a couple of uses to "burp" the top inch or so of air out the rad.

OK, I'm not used to plugging the tractor in, so will need a new habit.
More importantly I will need to REMEMBER that there is a 110 Volt LIVE power cord attached to the tractor.
I have routed the cord THROUGH the steering wheel, which might sound crazy, but hopefully I will notice it when I use the tractor the next time and it will remind me to unplug it before driving away.

One final thing; I am always cautious of metal to metal contact when it isn't by design.
There was a CHANCE that the metal body of the heater might rub against the edge of the radiator shroud.
To solve this (imagined) problem I slit the 2 inch length of hose that I had cut out and slipped it around the body of the heater.
It is the perfect length for this and when opened up wraps around and encases the heater body perfectly - adds a bit of thermal insulation too.

I will probably do some hose feeling before starting up, at a guess I will plug in for an hour before using the tractor, but only if temps are below 20F.

 

[gsgator]

There is a post titled "Branson 2910 Warranty Work" that talks a little about the problem I had with mine. There is a check valve somewhere in the fuel system and mine was installed on the wrong line causing a lot of smoke and limited power. One of the other things it did was start hard. Since they corrected it, it helped tremendously with the power, cut the smoke, and starts easier. I didn't know if you got yours figured out yet.