"Breakout force" (yet another question on this)

   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #1  

SmallChange

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Tractor
New Holland WM25 with 200LC front end loader, filled R4 tires 43X16.00-20 and 25X8.50-14 (had a Kubota B6200D with dozer and R1 tires)
There are a number of references around, including threads here, that explain that breakout force or rollback force is the maximum force a loader can exert at the lip of the bucket by curling with it against the ground, as opposed to the smaller lifting force exerted by the loader arms with the bucket above the ground. Obviously, a claw hammer can pull a nail up with more force in prying mode than if you just try to pull the whole hammer up; that's the whole point of having a claw.

But I *still* don't get what my tractor specs mean:

Breakout force @ pivot pin: 1196.0 kg (2636.7 lb)
Bucket rollback force at ground level: 1234.0 kg (2720.5 lb)

The rollback force listed sounds like my above explanation of either term. But what is the breakout force being described here? There's no vertical motion at the pivot pin, it's a pivot (right?). I see the two forces are very close, but, what are they talking about?

I'm mostly just curious, but can anybody help me understand?

----------------

Here are some examples of the definition of breakout force I've found elsewhere (as you can see they vary widely):

"Breakout force is the force available to lift the FEL at the bottom of the pile"

"Breakout force is where any cylinder at power can no longer repond"

"It is the maximun force the bucket can curl at the cutting edge using the curling function"

"the maximum amount of upward force the FEL can generate using all of it's hydraulic circuits combined"

"Break out force is the weight that the bucket can curl or roll back"

"it's the sum off all cylinders available power at any one time, independant of the direction and axis of motion"

"bucket breakout is the curl and regular breakout was measured at the pivot where there would be no curl"

"Breakout force is probably best described as the amount of force or pressure (indicated in lbs per sq inch) required to free an object or load from the material it is surrounded or imbedded in." [Note they are saying it isn't a property of the machine, it's a property of the load]

"Technically (ISO or International Standards Org.), it's the maximum upward force in kN measured 100mm (or ft/lbs and 4" aft) of the cutting edge, achieved by the bucket cylinder(s), that is, the curl function, or in geometric terms the rolling moment around the bucket hinge."
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #3  
It appears your manufacture is calling boom cylinders breakout force and bucket cylinders rollback force.


I would NOT say it's maximum force of all hydraulics combined. Hydraulics will do the easiest load first, not combine forces.
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #4  
So I had to look at my loader manual to confirm my recollection and here's what I found:

Bucket rollback force varies with lift arm height. Looking at the charts the peak rollback force actually occurs around 500mm, with the rollback at ground height being a bit less.

So there would be a difference between the ISO definition of maximum upward force and ground level rollback force. I suspect this is due to the geometry of the loader.

As for the pivot pin vs other measurements, I'm pretty sure that's done to remove the distance part of the equation. Rollback force is technically a force applied at a distance from a point of rotation which means it's really a torque. ....so I'd suspect the breakout force at the pivot pin is most likely the force the hydraulic cylinders are capable of creating at their attachment point to create a rotational force around the pivot pin. Though I'm not entirely entirely sure on that, as it seems there are often different definitions used between different companies/organizations.

So in other words engineering might be an endeavor filled with precision, but communicating those engineering results to others who weren't involved in the work rarely seems to be..... :confused2:
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #5  
It's purely the lifting force of the loader from the ground (or at the bottom of it's travel which might be slightly below ground level). The loader is strongest at the bottom of it's travel.

Here's the ISO 14397 definition of breakout force:
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:14397:-2:ed-2:v1:en


maximum sustained upward vertical force, in newtons, generated at a point 100 mm behind the leading edge of the bucket of a loader, or behind the foremost point of the cutting edge for a loader having a bucket with an irregular (pointed, curved, etc.) cutting-edge shape, by a lift or tilt cylinder, with the bottom of the bucket's cutting edge parallel to, and not more than 20 mm above, the ground reference plane

Of course ISO measures it at a different point than "at the pins" because they're ISO, but that's just geometry. (side note: where is 'at the pins' on a SSQA that's permanently fixed on the loader? the plate face?)
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #6  
To me, it's a combination of machine traction, bucket force and loader lifting capacity. It never ceases to amaze me, how much power it takes to shove a thin steel edge into a hard pile. Yet you have no trouble slicing dep into flat ground, mostly when you don't intend to.
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this)
  • Thread Starter
#7  
It appears your manufacture is calling boom cylinders breakout force and bucket cylinders rollback force.


I would NOT say it's maximum force of all hydraulics combined. Hydraulics will do the easiest load first, not combine forces.

Well, it isn't that. Boom cylinders give the force called out one line above in the specs. All three of the force specs are:

Lift capacity to maximum height @ pivot pin 726.0 kg (1600.6 lb)
Breakout force @ pivot pin 1196.0 kg (2636.7 lb)
Bucket rollback force at ground level 1234.0 kg (2720.5 lb)

There is a whole lot of stuff in the manual I could have posted.
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #8  
It's purely the lifting force of the loader from the ground (or at the bottom of it's travel which might be slightly below ground level). The loader is strongest at the bottom of it's travel.

Here's the ISO 14397 definition of breakout force:
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:14397:-2:ed-2:v1:en


maximum sustained upward vertical force, in newtons, generated at a point 100 mm behind the leading edge of the bucket of a loader, or behind the foremost point of the cutting edge for a loader having a bucket with an irregular (pointed, curved, etc.) cutting-edge shape, by a lift or tilt cylinder, with the bottom of the bucket's cutting edge parallel to, and not more than 20 mm above, the ground reference plane

Of course ISO measures it at a different point than "at the pins" because they're ISO, but that's just geometry. (side note: where is 'at the pins' on a SSQA that's permanently fixed on the loader? the plate face?)

THIS ^ ^

EXCEPT - - Breakout motion is not vertical. At ground level The motion of the bucket is up and forward. If you are pushing at the same time as you are lifting a component of that push fights the breakout force. The tractor must be free to move back somewhat in order to not offset breakout force available.​
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #9  
Breakout force @ pivot pin: 1196.0 kg (2636.7 lb)
Bucket rollback force at ground level: 1234.0 kg (2720.5 lb)

The rollback force listed sounds like my above explanation of either term. But what is the breakout force being described here? There's no vertical motion at the pivot pin, it's a pivot (right?). I see the two forces are very close, but, what are they talking about?

I'm mostly just curious, but can anybody help me understand?

I don't see the problem. The specs you quote are exactly how I would describe it. A force doesn't require any motion. It's just a force. You weigh the same standing or moving.

Breakout force at the pin is the vertical lifting force of the loader arms provided by the loader arm cylinders.
Breakout force varies with the position of the loader arms. In this case it would be when the bucket is flat on the ground.

Rollback force at the bucket tip is the rotational force provided by the bucket cylinder(s) as the bucket tip rotates around the pivot pin. It varies with the bucket dimensions.

Lift force at full height is a measure of the vertical force provided by the loader arm cylinders - same cylinders and same pressure as the breakout force - but it gives a different number since the horizontal distance from the loader cylinder mounts to the pivot pin is now different.

Hope this helps.
rScotty
 
   / "Breakout force" (yet another question on this) #10  
Just think of breakout force as the ability to curl loads. If you have a long bucket or are using forks you will want more breakout force.

Tractor specs seem to be made by sales guys who only want one easy number to quote from. If you have a light machine over optimistic specs do nothing for the operator.

When you look a commercial construction equipment specs they tend to include things like safe working loads at max height and in full turns. When OHSA gets involved then manufacturers talk about safety and operating capacity. When selling to non-commercial types its all about selling the sizzle to satisfy guys wanting bragging rights for their toy that sits in the driveway most of the time.

Bottom line is if you are a homeowner consumer your perspective will be limited and you have to take what the sales guy is pushing worth a grain of salt...you are small fry and a one time sale, move aside now please.
 
 
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