Briggs versus Kohler.....

garchib · Aug 16, 2005

For years I heard that Kohler was a superior motor to Briggs. Now I am hearing the opposite.....Did Kohler blow it on the newer Courage and Command (I think that is the name) engines ? I am toying with buying a new, small lawn tractor and it looks like other than Cub Cadet, Kohlers are hard to get on the smaller tractors. Even Sears has limited offerings in a Kohler engine. It used to be that Sears lawn & garden tractors were "great bang for the buck". Is this still true ?

gamble77 · Aug 16, 2005

From my standpoint, if I have a choice on a machine to order either a B&S or a Kohler I would choose the Kohler every day. I guarantee you we do 10 B&S warranties for every one we do for Kohler...I really think the Kohler is that much better. Just my opinion from my experience.

Of course the throw away "courage" motors are nothing to write home about, but it is what it is, a cheap economical single cylinder motor.

frank_f15 · Aug 16, 2005

Well i have a sears 18 hp GT for 13 years now, won't even beging to guess how many hours on it, it has the BS twin and have had no problems at all with it. would i buy another ? YEP!!!!!!!

VA_Joe · Aug 16, 2005

I think it depends on which B&S engine you are talking about. The Vanguards are pretty good (at least the one that I have). The best engines on the market are the probably the red top Honda engines. Although very pricey, everything about them (pistons, rings, etc.) is first class. I would be a little suspicious about the blue top Honda engines sold at Lowes. They seem to be more targeted at the consumer vice commercial market.

garchib · Aug 17, 2005

.....How about the Kohler Command engine ? I see no mention of it.....Is this a better engine than the Courage ? Thx

timb · Aug 17, 2005

If you can go by the company they keep, start looking at what brands/series motors are being used in the 'prosumer' and commercial lawn & garden tractors, riding mowers, and big walk-behinds.

Kawasaki seems to be the most common oem for the top-end (air-cooled) machines, but Kohlers find their way into some pretty expensive equipment by some respected mfgs. Don't actually see Honda used very often in anything with more than single-digit hp applications.

I've got a Kohler Command 16 horse single in our new Deere LT160, and so far so good but it's really too new to tell.

There is also a Kohler "Command Pro" line, but I haven't found anything to say they're any different internally from the regular Command units, they just seem to include more sophisticated dual-stage air cleaners, they have oil coolers and bigger sumps. (All good for longevity).

ByronBob · Aug 17, 2005

I had a Kohler Command 15.5hp engine in my 97 Craftsman which died on me. After haggling with Sears I got a new one under warranty after the expiration of the warranty.

This type of service earned my future business if I go this route. I really think I just got a lemon because it took over 2 years for the engine to develop it's issues.

The new 16hp Kohler Command in my tractor (5years running) is flawless. I'd get another one without hesitation.

B/S is also a great engine IMO. Many friends have them and don't hate them.

JTKub · Aug 17, 2005

Both briggs and kohler make engines that will last a long time. Much of the 'problems' arise on the larger displacement vertical shaft engines of both makers. Vertical shaft engines are much more sensative to proper oil level as the oil sump can easily leak into the cylinder(s). Vert. shaft OHV engines also tend to be more prone to valve cover leaks as the heads are postitioned low as compared to an 'upright' horizontal shaft engine. FWIW- I love the kohler command 20 in my cub cadet 2544.
G/luck
Joel

DmansPadge · Aug 17, 2005

I've never owned a Kohler. I've had many B&S and Hondas. I've never had an engine problem with anything I've ever owned. Any trouble I had were with parts that were not related to the engine. I'm open to any of the engine brands.

I do think Kawasaki and Honda are the premier small engines. B&S Vangaurds I would assume are right there with them. Like I said.. no Kohler experience... so I won't comment on them.

BX1 · Aug 18, 2005

I have a Bolens ST125 with a Kohler Command 12.5hp engine. I bought it in Feb. 1993. The only "repair" on the engine is the eletronic ingition I think. Its on the flywheel, tells the spark plug when to spark. Last year it quit charging the battery. It has OHV and pressurized oiling with spin on filter. The only complaint I have is when changing the oil filter, oil gets everywhere as the filter is facing down. There is a little plug on the filter flange that I could setup to drain the filter, but after having it this long..............

Bird · Aug 18, 2005

Maybe deciding whether Briggs or Kohler is the better engine is like deciding whether Ford or Chevrolet is the better car. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Depends on who you ask. We had a 1988 fifth-wheel trailer with a 4.5 kw Kohler generator running on propance, and I had a 1995 Cub Cadet lawn tractor with an 11 hp Kohler. I've had quite a few Briggs engines on lawnmowers and a pressure washer/spray rig. The only trouble I had with any of them was carburetors, and that's pretty simple to fix or replace. I did buy a Craftsman lawn tractor in 2002 with a 21hp two cylinder Briggs engine and the same mower was on sale for the same price with an 18hp single cylinder Kohler ("regular" price was $100 more for the Kohler, even though it was smaller). Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to buy either engine.

slowrev · Aug 18, 2005

My only personal recommendation is whether it is Briggs or Kohler, get one with a cast iron or steel bore sleeve in it. Will run forever /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The aluminum bore ones have a more limited lifespan.

Ben

garchib · Aug 18, 2005

I like your analogy Bird /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif That is a very good one and the point is well taken.....regarding the sleaves being iron / steel versus aluminum....I have noticed that kind of detail is not always published and have not had verry good luck getting that kind of information from some of the sales people at a Home Depot / Lowes / Sears in the past

frank_f15 · Aug 18, 2005

I don't know if it is the same now as it was years ago, but (just for reference i will use Briggs) if a a mower came with a 3.5 engine and sold for $89 at the local discount store it was NOT the same brigs 3.5 HP engine on a more expensive NAME BRAND mower, it was built to different specs. This was also true for Clinton engines(remember those) and i would imagine it is the same today.

Bird · Aug 18, 2005

( Clinton engines(remember those) )

Yep, my first power mower in 1955. I'm not sure, but think I bought it at White's Auto. I was making pretty good money, for a kid, mowing yards until I hit a big bone the customer's dog had left in tall grass; killed the engine instantly and bent the crankshaft. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

garchib · Aug 19, 2005

So, here is the follow-up question then....what do you consider "name brand" ? Are you saying the Briggs engines in a JD tractor are better quality than those in a Sears ? I also have heard some disparaging remarks about the JD(s) and Cub(s) sold at the home stores.....I am simply to trying to find out which brand is the best "bang for the buck".

slowrev · Aug 19, 2005

Frank there are different models of briggs engines. Some are alum bore some are cast bore, some have ball bearings, some have sleeve bearings, etc...those $89 mowers don't have seconds, they are just a cheaper model.
I don't think someone making an $89 push mower would use the best model of briggs engine. Same as an auto company, is a Corvette going to have the same engine as a Chevette ?
Kohler does not seem to make as many models of engines. Not sure why though.

Ben

Dutch445 · Aug 19, 2005

Does B&S still make the I/C models?
I know they still make the Intek, then the Vangard. If I were to guess, their motors go from I/C to Intek then to Vangard in terms of quality?
JD used to put the Vangard in the GT235, one of the biggest selling tractors they had. They did switch to the Kawi a couple years ago, but that Vangard was a good motor.
As far as Kohler, I have only seen the Command motors in the JD equipment. I can't say what the Courage? motor is about, but maybe it's a cheaper motor for manufacturers to use in equipment that is more price conscious.
I would bet that manufacturers take into account design life of the machine when they pick a motor for it. Why put a liquid cooled Kawasaki V-twin in a tractor that is only designed to last 6-800 hrs?
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

DmansPadge · Aug 20, 2005

( Same as an auto company, is a Corvette going to have the same engine as a Chevette ?)

Hahaha! I haven't even thought about a Chevette in years. My brother used to have one... with gas/diesel prices these days... I wouldn't mind having it! His was a diesel and got about 55mpg. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JTKub · Aug 20, 2005

Dutch- Briggs still makes what they call the "I/C" line, but they are really just an "intek" w/out an oil filter. Even the I/C's are OHV as opposed to flat heads these days. Pretty much everything more than about 5-6hp has gone to OHV for emissions. Hard to believe, but JD has been using kawasaki engines in their LT/GT's since around 1990. Our JD GT262 had a 17hp kawi and that was a 1992.
G/luck
Joel