Broken hydraulic arm on 410 loader

[Steve_in_SEMich]

Good morning folks - as the attached picture shows, I managed to break a hydraulic arm on my JD 4115 (410 loader). Question #1 - can it be welded and still perform as new? Question #2 - if it can't be welded, is this a DIY job? I have limited mechanical abilities (plenty of tools & time), but I'm hesitant regarding the hydraulic system. As always, your advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[GATC35]

It is hard to tell by the picture but the black line on the left side of the rod looks like an "inclusion". This is a flaw in the metal when it was poured from the molten state. Looks like it has lead to a stress fracture. By looking at the grain of the metal it looks like some pretty hard stuff. The harder the metal the more prone it is to stress fractures. I would go ahead and try to weld it. The welding will cause stress right at the weld and may crack in the same place again. It could last 10 days or 10 years. I would at least give it a try instead of buying a new cylinder.

 

[DavidJ]

If you do try and weld it yourself you should extend the rod to prevent heat damage to the seals and the wrap the chromed area well to prevent spatter damage. You'll need to "V" it out deeply and make several passes cleaning well between each.

Good luck if you do decide to DIY.

If that fails you can replace the rod yourself but the local hydraulic shop can make quick work of it for not much more than the rod costs.

As an after thought you migh want to take it off and run by your local hydraulic shop and get their opinion on the best way to proceed.

 

[RobS]

Before you do much of anything, call your dealer and find out the cost for replacement and rebuilt cylinders. They can rebuild or order the piston for you to rebuild. I have no idea the costs for either, but I'd want to know before I decided to have it welded. Also ask about warranty coverage /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[beenthere]

Yes it can be welded by a good welder.

But first, I would present this to your Deere dealer. I think such a failure would be taken care of by Deere (I can't speak for them, but think these kinds of failures are not normal and they would help you out).

What I'd be interested in hearing, is how did you break it? I'd like to avoid that manuever, if possible. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Wannafish]

After viewing the photo submitted several times, I do not believe the "black line" was caused by an "inclusion". It appears to me as a shadow - the surface of the broken area is not a flat plane, but rather has a step in it, resulting the shadow in the picture. Had it been an inclusion you would see stress lines extending out from it, or radiating in an egg shaped pattern. The surface of the break area seems to show the break happened in an immediate fashion, not over a prolonged period (been there myself).

Since you are not seeking advice on how to talk to your dealer about it being covered under warranty, I guess I consider your message as an admission of "oops".

Yes, it can be welded. Remove the entire cylinder from the loader, and as others have said - extend and cover the shaft surface that goes into the cylinder, and grind a V. (Any spatter on that part of the shaft will make short work of the seals.)
Remove paint from the area near the break and hook the ground lead of your welder in that area. You don't want the current going thru the cylinder to get to the end of the shaft, and the dark (blackish gray) coating on the cylinder shafts on the 410 loader appears to be either a ceramic coating or black oxide. Either will inhibit current flow, so best to ground near the break.

Good luck.
(If it was me, i'd just take it to a weld shop /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

 

[joecdeere]

there are two bucket cylinder rods for a 410 serial # decides
one list for $370 (up to serial #0008801) the other $140 (above s/n 8802) If it were mine I'd hit the hydraulic shop.

 

[Steve_in_SEMich]

Short version - as "joecdeere" indicated, the new hydro cylinder (complete unit) will cost $370 - good news is that I can get it today/tomorrow and no delay on the weekend dirt moving project. Welding the broken rod or just replacing the rod would result in a longer delay. Also, because I can't tell you the difference between hydro and schmydro systems, even if I could get the replacement rod quickly, I would still have to get someone else to reassemble the cylinder. I am going to take the broken rod and cylinder to a weld shop when time permits to at least have a backup. Thanks again for all the quick responses and guidance.

Steve

 

[AntrimMan]

Geez what a loud bang that must have made!
The darkie within the fracture is a shadow, agreed.
Can't see enough of the rod to be sure on the finish, black oxide is doubtful as is ceramic. More likely a hard chrome flash over a roller burnished shaft.
I am amazed the hydraulic system can exert such force.
With the obvious lack of elongation at the failure I would suggest that rod is relatively hard. A knowledgeable welder can quickly tell and than apply the appropriate process. Usually the rod is annealed in the immediate weld area but this one looks brittle.
If repairing this is something your are unfamiliar with I suggest you pick up the phone book and call around. What can this cost to get welded, $50 bucks? Sounds worth it if you can't do it.
Myself, I would die trying. If you fail what is the worst thing you could end up with, a broken rod again? It's a good enough excuse to me to buy a welder. Heed the advise the others have lended, dismantle, grind the chamfers, extend the rod, wrap it with layers of a wet blanket, put the cylinder and cross pin back in place to help keep the pin bore square with the rod, disconnect the battery, tack it around before welding.
Best of luck.
Martin

 

[AntrimMan]

Here's another thought on the rod finish.
If it's a better quality cylinder the rod will be heavy hard chromed and then centerless ground and this may lead to your failure. The rods are supposed to be conditioned (baked around 400F for a specific time period) to remove hydrogen which forms during the plating process and unless conditioned this will cause hydrogen embrittlement and result in the mode of failure you are witnessing. If that's the case the dealer may know about this and offer a silent factory warranty in the interest of customer satisfaction.
Try the dealer free fix route before spending any money.
Best of luck again,
Martin