Builder on the news

riptides · Dec 8, 2003

You know these things happen all the time. In our area there was a regional builder in the news for "discrepancies" in paper work and delivered product. Basically it looks to be a slight variation in plan of over 300 square feet missing.

These are homes that are priced at 300k and above.

Unreal, I feel for you, and hope it works out.

-Mike Z.

Tom_Trees · Dec 8, 2003

Not sure why you guys think this is so criminal. It's pretty typical for this to happen in healthcare every single day. We either get bankruptcy notices from patients or that our claim was denied by insurance for some reason and then the patient never pays every single day. 

I've had two run-ins, if you will, with the medical profession in this area. I did arthroscopic knee surgery about 10 years ago and got bills afterward from people I'd never heard of prior to the process, and the hospital hit me up for $900 in 'miscellaneous supplies' as one line item.

I'm going in for surgery again in January and I intend to make it clear during the pre-op visits that I want to meet with *everyone* who will be billing me direct beforehand, or I will be considering them subcontractors of either the hospital or the surgeon.

I also just found out I owed a co-pay to my family physician and he just wrote it off, with a note in my chart that I needed to make payment before I could schedule an appointment. I now remember their system was down that day (a year ago) and they didn't want to take the payment at the time -- said they'd bill me. I never saw a bill come in . . .

Back on topic -- a co-worker went through a similar problem with the general contractor filing bankrupcy after taking full payment for reconstruction after a fire. Luckily the co-worker had reciepts from the GC showing what the payments covered, so when the subs tried filing leins he could prove payment to the court. The worst part, he said, was that the ONLY sub who'd done the job correctly the first time, the windows contractor, was the only sub who had not been paid at all.

Tom

Bird · Dec 8, 2003

( the hospital hit me up for $900 in 'miscellaneous supplies' as one line item. )

Tom, my wife recently had a "partial mastectomy" (sometimes called a lumpectomy); day surgery; total time in the hospital about 7 hours. The bill, $11968.58, included $634.00 for "MED/SURG SUPPLIES GEN" and $790.59 for "MED/SURG STERILE SUPPLY", as well as $881.50 for "ANESTHESIA-GENERAL" (that anesthesia, of course, did not include the anesthesiologist's bill). And of course that $11968.58 didn't include the radiologist, pathologist, and surgeon's bills either.

Friends of ours recently protested the size of a hospital bill and the hospital employee told them that so many people fail to pay their bills that they have to overcharge the rest of us to make up for it. I think our doctor friends on this forum have confirmed that with the percentages of collections they mentioned. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

wroughtn_harv · Dec 8, 2003

( Luckily the co-worker had reciepts from the GC showing what the payments covered, so when the subs tried filing leins he could prove payment to the court.)

It must be different up there than down here or out west. The receipt from the general doesn't mean squat in court against a sub's lien.

I work by myself. That makes it real easy to give a labor release. I also rarely if ever have a supplier deliver to the job or note on the bill the address of the job. This protects my customer from a supplier's lien if I didn't pay for the materials.

If I was working with a builder I didn't know real well I'd demand material and labor releases on every draw. The general will list what the draw is against and before I'd release the draw I'd have lien releases in hand.

I don't work for builders on plain old principle. Well, there are a couple that I do this or that but generally they turn the customer over to me and we work it out. If the general gets a finder's fee I make sure the customer knows. It's their money. But usually if I'm involved on a job the customer is wanting a severe upgrade and the general will step out of the way.

It doesn't matter if the builder is a national company or some kid with a new diesel pickemup with some signs on the side. They make their money by watching their costs. Big or small if the costs are spiraling up or they just get plain greedy they will shop the bid. Shopping the bid is when they take the sub's bid they used to get the job around to others in the trade to see if they will do it cheaper. That's on the same level as changing out good diamonds for so so ones when you're a jeweler and you think the customer will never know the difference.

If you're dealing with a small local builder chances are they graduated up to builder from one of the trades. A lot of trim carpenters seem to make the jump. If you can find out what their stepping stone was then when you visit some of their satisfied customers look at how they handled their own specialty. It is a window to their soul.

s1120 · Dec 8, 2003

If I was working with a builder I didn't know real well I'd demand material and labor releases on every draw. The general will list what the draw is against and before I'd release the draw I'd have lien releases in hand.


If there ever is a next time. This is what I will do.

BTW More air time. We had a meating tonight of a lot of the victome of these guys.This is getting REAL big. We had our local 10 news, 9news Local fox news there. Also two local papers were there.

bcarter · Dec 9, 2003

Friends of ours recently protested the size of a hospital bill and the hospital employee told them that so many people fail to pay their bills that they have to overcharge the rest of us to make up for it. 

So if you pay your bill you get over-charged, and if you don't pay your bill... hmmm, this sure doesn't sound like good incentive to get folks to pay their bills. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

When my son was in the hospital (3 days of neo-natal ICU) the bill came to over $21K for the hospital alone. The worst part was that the bill arrived more than a year (16 months) after the charges were incurred! In the interum the state of Massachusetts passed a surcharge law that allowed hospitals to tack on a surcharge to any medical bill over $10K (the amount was some percentage of the total). Even though the charges were incured BEFORE the law was passed the surcharge was added because this bill was generated AFTER the law was passed. I thought that was a little cheeky. Supposedly the surcharge was to help hospitals recover some of the money from non-paying customers.

The system definitely needs a change...the question is what to do to make it better. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif For starters I suppose they could make their billing process a little more efficient!

Junkman · Dec 9, 2003

MA also has a tax on hospital bills that gets remitted to the state, so I have been told, but the tax is never shown on any bill that you would receive, but the cost of the tax is wrapped up in the individual items. This money is supposed to help the state to pay for hospital bills that are incurred by people that are on the state insurance program. This program is for woman with children and all you have to be is in a low income situation to qualify. I know of a person that lives in a home that is worth over $1,000,000 and has a stock portfolio to match..... owns many rental properties that qualifies for the state insurance because their income, after all the depreciation and other items that accountants are allowed to deduct reduces their taxable income to the point that they qualify. If there are children involved, the state does what ever is necessary to make sure that the children have proper medical care. If it is a out of work single person in their 40's, then they are just out of luck and for all the state cares, they can just die!!!!! The baby that is born 4 months premature to a crack addict, the state will spend millions to help that child survive....
I can see this thread going in a wrong direction now, so I will just end..... Suffice it to say, that I am not pleased with the way that our government takes care of its needy citizens unequally....

KubotaSteve · Dec 9, 2003

I think the basic saying:
"The honest guy always gets screwed pretty much holds true in all of these cases."
Remember true accounting is not about numbers, but about the perception of expenses and income.
There is no white or black but just gray areas.
Honesty will eventually pay off!!!!
My builder wouldn't fix some items on my house until I told him I refused to sign anymore draws until the current items were fixed. I was holding up like $50,000 of their money because they wouldn't replace a vinyl window that had the vinyl cracked. Needless to say it was replaced rather quickly!
It seems like my bank required the builder to have all their subs sign a waiver of liens or something before closing.

wroughtn_harv · Dec 10, 2003

About six years ago I broke my left foot on a job. Bud hauled me to the doctor's office. I left seven hundred and some dollars with the doctor when I headed home. At home I happened to go over the bill. A couple of days later (I was on the job nailing up eight foot cedar pickets the next day) I stopped by the doctor's office for a reassessment of my bill.

It seems if you have a broken foot there are certain things that are just assumed done. Some of them weren't done in my case. It ended up costing me about half what I'd originally paid.

The lady at the doctor's office explained that their charges were based upon the insurance companies pay schedule. I can understand that. Insurance company says you only get fifty dollars for this so you add that to make up for it.

The doctors are between a rock and a hard place. They have the no pays and the slow pays. Slow pays are the insurance companies.

I still say the only way to have a house built is to find a builder you trust and then not come back until he's done. You're paying that fifteen to twenty percent premium because your builder is taking care of the details. He's paid that to guarantee the sub's work.

And it isn't just about watching their work either. He's there to make sure the subs don't walk all over each other. Scheduling the subs is critical. If they don't come in at just the right point it makes it hard on everyone. And if one sub screws up it can affect three others in a heartbeat. If each of those subs charge for their inconvenience that's supposed to come out of the general's cut if the faulty sub has already been paid and will not back up his work.

What ticks off my builder buds is the customer who only wants the names of the good subs so they know who to use. Having good subs is only half of it. The important half is scheduling the subs. And what's interesting is the subs find a builder who does that well and they'll walk through fire to work for him. They understand that firm hand not only takes away but it gives too.

That's when you see a owner builder crying about the work of a sub with an outstanding reputation. The owner builder screwed up the scheduling and before long everyone on the job has an attitude. It goes downhill from there.