Burning brush piles

[tmc_31]

Hey all,

I am clearing my neighbors 5 acre lot ( one acre is already cleared so 4 acres of work) of prickly pear, medium to large mesquite and small scrub oak. The pear, I am scraping up with rake that I built for my skid steer (like a rake on a dozer but with 3" spacing between the tines). Per the owners request, I am piling the pear around the perimeter of his property to form a kind of security fence. The "fence" winds up being 2.5-3' tall and maybe 5' wide. His thinking is that the pear will grow there and make a barrier that won't be much fun for the bad guys to cross. Also, it will be decorative (this is Texas you know:thumbsup.

The real purpose of this thread is to get some idea of what I should charge him to burn the brush piles. This is not neighbor helping neighbor (I do some of that too), this is contractor working for neighbor. My agreement with him now is to rake the pear onto the property lines, grub the mesquite and other brush and rake them into piles. It looks like I am going to wind up with about 3 piles (roughly 30' diameter x 8' high) per acre (12 piles total). He asked me the other day about burning the piles for him. I checked this morning, we are not under a burn ban now but we may have to wait a few months for the piles to dry out enough to burn . Due to his and my concern about fire danger I suggested that we dig a fire pit away from the house and out buildings and feed a smaller (more easily controlled) fire from the brush piles. I can use the grapple on the skid to move material from the brush piles to the burn pit. It looks to me like there is going be a lot of time spent just watching the fire burn and keeping it contained.

This also might be a test case for a larger burning project (about 30 acres and 70 piles) for another friend of mine down the road.

Thanks, I will be interested to hear your thoughts. I am not locked into any particular method yet so I am open to all advise.

Tim

 

[Egbert]

Not sure about the cost but I vote for as few burn sites as possible. My thought is to keep the land scars minimal, as to not promote takeover by weeds in the absence of grass from the burning. Would pick the safest location and wait for optimal conditions - a little snow cover, light rain or spring green-up. With about 100 acres, I've been able to keep my burns in just 2 piles.

 

[rustyshakelford]

Since your a contractor I'd be careful about burning. It would be considered a commercial burn in Texas and regulated by the TCEQ. If the "home owner" was to burn there are a lot less rules to follow. Get a torch from tractor supply that hooks to a 20 lb propane pig to light the piles. I can them going with that even if I have just piled it up. As far as a price it all depends on what you value your time. You will get much better results if you can baby sit them and add as needed.

I started typing this a few hrs ago so if it's already been said and I repeated. Sorry.

Brett

 

[creekbend]

Please use Diesel and not Gasoline. I use an old 2 gallon sprayer with a spray wand and nozzle. I spray in the middle and light it with a crumbled piece of paper. I then spray more Diesel as needed. In NC, a burn permit is required.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I got the propane Brett mentioned at HF and I do love it for burning. It is like a blast furnace to get one spot hot fast in each pile. After that I like to start with the leaf blower so I do not have to stay up with the fires a long time. Catching the correct weather is important.

 

[Ken45101]

What to charge? Why not charge per hour for your actual time?

 

[tmc_31]

Hey guys, I was going to respond yesterday, but I got to reading through the TCEQ rules regarding the burning of brush. Thanks for the heads up Brett. As far as I can tell, there is an exception to the no burn rule for burning brush. The home owner or his designee can do it. There is no requirement for notification to the TCEQ, just local authorities. I didn't find any reference to a commercial burn as opposed to a residential or non commercial burn. So I think I will be ok to burn it assuming the weather conditions are right and there is no county burn ban in place. Are you able to get a good burn on freshly piled brush? I would have thought it would have to dry out some before it would burn well. My thought was to let this sit for 6 months or so before trying to burn it. That would put me into April or so before I could burn it. The area should be damp enough that I shouldn't have to worry about a burn ban.

Creekbend, yeah, I will be using diesel as a starting fluid. I found out the hard way many years ago that lighting brush fires was not a good use for gasoline.

I like the idea of using a pear burner to light the fire, it keeps my face out of the flame

My problem with how to price this is since I will be required to babysit the brush piles while they burn, I will spend a lot of time just watching (if we burn the piles in place). Less so if I transfer the brush from a brush pile to a burn pit. I have no problem charging by the hour for this, but what is a fair hourly rate for this kind of work? I think I would want to do this as a "hired hand" as I am afraid that my insurance carrier would have a coronary if they knew I was starting fires. I think that working as a hired hand, it would put any liability squarely in the hands of the homeowner.

Tim

 

[Xfaxman]

Check this Website for the wind forcast: WindAlert

Be aware of radiant heat, I had a dead tree that was 150 feet from a big burn pile, catch on fire.

 

[yellowdogsvc]

Hey guys, I was going to respond yesterday, but I got to reading through the TCEQ rules regarding the burning of brush. Thanks for the heads up Brett. As far as I can tell, there is an exception to the no burn rule for burning brush. The home owner or his designee can do it. There is no requirement for notification to the TCEQ, just local authorities. I didn't find any reference to a commercial burn as opposed to a residential or non commercial burn. So I think I will be ok to burn it assuming the weather conditions are right and there is no county burn ban in place. Are you able to get a good burn on freshly piled brush? I would have thought it would have to dry out some before it would burn well. My thought was to let this sit for 6 months or so before trying to burn it. That would put me into April or so before I could burn it. The area should be damp enough that I shouldn't have to worry about a burn ban.

Creekbend, yeah, I will be using diesel as a starting fluid. I found out the hard way many years ago that lighting brush fires was not a good use for gasoline.

I like the idea of using a pear burner to light the fire, it keeps my face out of the flame

My problem with how to price this is since I will be required to babysit the brush piles while they burn, I will spend a lot of time just watching (if we burn the piles in place). Less so if I transfer the brush from a brush pile to a burn pit. I have no problem charging by the hour for this, but what is a fair hourly rate for this kind of work? I think I would want to do this as a "hired hand" as I am afraid that my insurance carrier would have a coronary if they knew I was starting fires. I think that working as a hired hand, it would put any liability squarely in the hands of the homeowner.

Tim

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. I have some experience "legally" burning brush in Texas.

Generally, you only have to notify your sheriff's office. TCEQ is only there is someone is complaining about smoke OR you are in an area that has reached non-attainment for air quality. In that case, burning may not be allowed on certain days. State law says that you can't burn in a temp or air inversion.. where the smoke sinks. You can't burn at night and all piles have to be out at night. Also, no burning of petroleum products like tires or oil that would generate thick, black smoke. That's the quickest way to get shut down and fined. It's legal for you to burn the brush where you cleared it but illegal to haul it away and burn it elsewhere though contractors do that all the time.

Here's where I agree with you. I like burn pits. They are safe and if the winds of a norther kick up, you have the ability to bury the fire. It is less of a scar (if your ground isn't rocky because you can turn over healthy soil.
The tricky part is, depending on the density, you would need a big pit OR a lot of time to get 4 acres of mesquite and oak burned. Oak burns slow.. mesquite not much faster. I'd recommending having some saw help to cut longer logs so you can make tight, concise piles to push into the pit. If you don't do a pit, I recommend several piles but not too big. Too big is just that much more ground that will be sterile for years and attract weeds/Roosevelt willow, etc.

I use a water wagon. It's a simple 500 gallon tank with a 5hp sprayer and 300 ft of 1" line with fire hose nozzle for safety. I don't like to burn but have burned large acreage of cedar and oak. I always take it seriously. There are a lot of contractors who don't respect fire and get away with years of doing dumb things then they catch the neighbor's place on fire and have no insurance.
So glad to see you are asking questions and have a plan!
It sounds like you know as much as anyone here and I wish you well.

As for charges.. I charge slightly less to burn than I do to clear. If I'm getting x dollars a day to clear, then I will stand by fire piles all day for slightly less but it's my butt, time, and equipment so I don't burn for free like some of my competitors. I can sit home and watch t.v. for free.
If I have to bring a machine to move brush to fire (I HATE doing that and RARELY will move brush to an existing fire, I charge the same as I would if I clearing. Doesn't take much smoke/soot to ruin a $80 air filter or make your machine stink if you have A/C.
So don't sell yourself short on the disposal. Most likely he won't want the hassle of doing it himself and the mulching guys or chipping guys would charge about $1500-2000 an acre to mulch brush assuming the oak and mesquite aren't too big to make it cost-ineffective to mulch. Add in your liability and it's worth something to do the burning.

Oh, pear burner works good. Longer the hose, the better. I use a little diesel, too, and a few old rags if I have them or the brush is wet.

 

[Creamer]

I have to agree with you about waiting 6 months. you will get a lot cleaner and faster burn, i.e. less particulates in the air and as you say it should be green and safer in April. I personally would not spend a lot of time moving brush piles - i would burn them in place especially in the spring when ground cover will come back quickly.

Charges - the same as any other job. Especially if you do it in the spring because you can get numerous piles burning and you need to have your equipment there and ready if needed.

 

[rustyshakelford]

I guess being so close to Harris county I forget that other parts of the state is easier to burn in! In Harris co you need a pit with an air curtain. It's a mess if your commercial.

I don't like leaving piles sitting for a long time. It's personal preference. Maybe two months max. Any more and they get so dry that they go up and get almost uncontrollable. If it's green or recently fallen, they burn a little slower but smoke more.

I agree about getting a saw hand. It will let you get the piles much tighter and more compact. Good luck and bring hot dogs!

Brett

 

[Gary Fowler]

If my memory serves me (sometimes it is fragile), back when my Dad had woodlands cleared of mostly oak trees, the dozer cut them with a V blade, the next day a dozer with root rake piled them into a long windrow. 5 days after cutting they set fire to the windrow and it burned to ashes. The dozer did have to push up the piles to keep it compacted after it burned a while. The dozer contractor said that green wood burned good 3 -5 days after cutting, but if you let it set till the wood soured (you can smell the sour odor), it wont burn, it just burns off the small limbs and leaves and leaves the trunks which are then hard to burn.

I like to set the fire on a brush pile on the downwind side. It burns slowly into the wind and burns hotter. If you set it on the upwind side the fire tends to just rapidly go thru the brush pile burning all the small stuff without getting the larger trunks hot enough to burn.

As for pricing, ask the owner if he is going to baby sit the burn or if you have to do it all. I would price the standby time (time just watching the burn) at an hourly labor rate and then charge him full clearing price for time using my tractor to punch up the pile or if using a burn pit, to add fuel to the fire. Depending on the burn rate, this could be a full time exercise hauling timber to the pit. Sawing the trees into manageable pieces is not going to be a cake walk either so you would have to price that at an hourly rate also.

Personally, I would put the whole thing into a windrow and tightly compact it, maybe have to saw some of the larger trees into smaller pieces to do this. Then set the windrow on fire. Punching up the pile after the pile burns overnight is best with a steel track but can be done with rubber tire if you push all the ashes up with the FEL as you move into the pile. This is the worst thing for your tractor and equipment and you might want to look at renting a dozer to complete this activity.

 

[tmc_31]

Thanks for all of your advise guys, some very good pointers here.

Yellowdog, I too think the water wagon is a good idea. I will be close enough to a water spigot that I can keep the area around the pit watered but if the fire did get away from me I think I would want something that would deliver water more quickly than a water hose. I have been thinking about building a water wagon for a while now as we are about 8 miles from the nearest volunteer fire dept. I am thinking 2 of those 275 gal liquid transport tanks that you can move with a forklift mounted in series on a trailer. What kind of pump do you use for your water wagon? I have a 5 hp trash pump, but I am afraid it doesn't have the pressure needed. It would be nice to throw that water 75-100 ft at about 20-30gpm.

The saw hand idea is a good one as there are some rather large trees in the piles. I could pull out the largest of them and before the burning and cut them up for firewood.

One of my concerns is using my skid to move the brush from the piles to the burn pit. I am thinking of building a grapple that would hang from the end of a 10' gin pole attached to the skid. I already have the gin pole built and have been using it for several years. Hanging a grapple from it would keep my machine a little further away from the fire. Think of a grapple on an excavator in a scrap yard.

As for pricing, I could price the time I am using the skid at my normal rate then the rest of the time while I am just watching the fire, I could bill at a reduced rate. Moving the piles to a burn pit is going to take a while, especially since I have to have the fires out by dark. It will be interesting to see how long this is going to take.

Again, thanks for your thoughts. Any other thoughts, advise or warnings are appreciated, so keep them coming.

Tim

 

[ksbrdmkr]

In our County each Fire Department has different burn requirement. When I burn brush piles the wind has to be slower than I can run and I only burn one pile at a time. I would be very careful about using a cab tractor/skid close to a fire, with a open platform at least you can feel the heat. The safest time is when the ground is snow covered.

 

[rustyshakelford]

Thanks for all of your advise guys, some very good pointers here.

Yellowdog, I too think the water wagon is a good idea. I will be close enough to a water spigot that I can keep the area around the pit watered but if the fire did get away from me I think I would want something that would deliver water more quickly than a water hose. I have been thinking about building a water wagon for a while now as we are about 8 miles from the nearest volunteer fire dept. I am thinking 2 of those 275 gal liquid transport tanks that you can move with a forklift mounted in series on a trailer. What kind of pump do you use for your water wagon? I have a 5 hp trash pump, but I am afraid it doesn't have the pressure needed. It would be nice to throw that water 75-100 ft at about 20-30gpm.

The saw hand idea is a good one as there are some rather large trees in the piles. I could pull out the largest of them and before the burning and cut them up for firewood.

One of my concerns is using my skid to move the brush from the piles to the burn pit. I am thinking of building a grapple that would hang from the end of a 10' gin pole attached to the skid. I already have the gin pole built and have been using it for several years. Hanging a grapple from it would keep my machine a little further away from the fire. Think of a grapple on an excavator in a scrap yard.

As for pricing, I could price the time I am using the skid at my normal rate then the rest of the time while I am just watching the fire, I could bill at a reduced rate. Moving the piles to a burn pit is going to take a while, especially since I have to have the fires out by dark. It will be interesting to see how long this is going to take.

Again, thanks for your thoughts. Any other thoughts, advise or warnings are appreciated, so keep them coming.

Tim

If it was my burns, I wouldn't put it out at night regardless of what the law says. It will just keep doing its thing all night. The RH will increase and the threat of spread is very low. If you have a good pressure washer you could use that for the fire. Get some different tips. Obviously the gpm will be low but the pressure is great and you can get good reach with a red tip. It's not ideal but if you already have it use it. If it's fully involved nothing you have would knock it out. Just try to keep the embers down.

Brett

 

[cartod]

Cover the piles with a tarp and wait until its raining to light them if you are worried about fire.

 

[Beltman60]

I cover mine with a tarp for at least a week (usually ends up being more like a month by the time it rains)
I have dozens of tarps from Harbor Freight (cheap ones for this)
after a good rain is when I burn
never had a problem

I do like the idea of making a furrow down the middle of the acreage and lighting one area and let it burn to the other

diesel good gas BAD BAD BAD

 

[paulharvey]

My only real advice is build basically one or more long window piles, but leave 50 ft breads every 100ft or so. I wouldnt feed the fire with the skid steer or
tractor, its simply the wrong too low l for the job. The .right tool would be a 20 ton hoe with thumb (pc200, cat320, ect). Even using a hoe is a risk. I have personally seen one hoe burn feeding a fire (20 ton Hitachi) and know second hand of two komatsu pc200 both that burned feeding fires. Both komatsu where saved with only a few thousand in damage, but thehiatchi was a total loss, scrapped.
I

 

[tift104]

Everybody has provided valuable information. A lot of people think that all they have to do is pile it and light a match and leave it. There is an art to completing a successful burn. The weather conditions (wind direction and speed, days since rain, KDBI index, relative humidity) have to be in near perfect conditions prior to burning. You are also going to have to consider any smoke sensitive areas that may be near by. I usually go to any of the surrounding neighbors that I think would be a concern and tell them what I'm planning on doing. I've even gone to the extent of renting them a motel room for a day or two if there is going to be a residual smoke issue. I make a Burn Plan that includes maps of smoke sensitive areas, fire breaks, water sources, ect. I give everyone involved with the burn a copy. I usually let the land owner strike the first match. This may not mean nothing in a court room should something go horribly wrong but gives me a little ease of mind. The water cart is a necessity. I've done exactly what was mentioned earlier and used a 275 gallon container as a extra water source and a smaller spray tank on the back of a ATV for a more mobile water source. You may even consider burning the area surrounding the brush pile prior to lighting the pile itself. Should a rogue ember escape the pile hopefully it will land in the burned area and not flame up and create another problem. Brush piles tend to smoulder for days even weeks after they have burned down. We usually keep an watchful eye for the first several days after a burn is completed. As far as lighting the pile we usually put some diesel in the center of the pile and use a Panama Flame Gun or drip torch to ignite the diesel.
In my opinion fire is one of the best and most economical tools used for land clearing and timber management but can have devastating results if its not respected.
As far as what to charge. I usually have a hourly standby rate, a daily rate for the ATV & water cart, then my machine rates/hr for cleanup or sifting the piles. Just be careful with the equipment around the pile. I've seen a JD 650 dozer and a Tigercat Skidder burn to the ground because some idiot decided it was a good idea to punch up a few piles with equipment that had a few hydraulic leaks.
Good Luck and be careful.

 

[TomSeller]

Wow, I guess I am nowhere near as considerate. I wait for a rainy day with some wind and light it up with a propane weed burner. I also do as mentioned previously pile debris into long 10' wide east-west rows ahead of the burn. I then light the end the wind is blowing from (always west to east or east to west where I live) and let it burn like a cigarette. Alternately, I burn on an old stump and "flip" load it with a FEL carefully at a safe distance from up wind. Larger pieces of wood that do not burn completely get pushed into a pile a few days later and re burned.