Busted Branson

[farmersfeedu09]

Hey all, I have some bad news to report. My 3510 has kicked the bucket. I went to start my tractor this morning and upon turning the key to start, I was greeted by a loud pop. I waited just a minute and tried again hoping in vain that the sound was just my imagination. The second time I was sad to here some loud knocking and slapping coupled with some white smoke. Me, being the super duper mechanic that I am immediately shut down the machine and checked the oil. The oil level was fine as it should be. I have done regular maintenance on this tractor and have not intentionally abused my machine. So at just over 3 years and 359 hours my luck has run out.
I did ask a friend of mine to take a look, this man is a true mechanic and is ASE certified. He immediately asked if I had heard a loud pop, to which I replied yes. In his opinion an injector could have been the primary culprit. Dumping to much fuel into a cylinder and causing detonation. I have to say in hind sight the tractor had become more and more difficult to start, especially in cold temps below 55 degrees, that this sounds possible. If this had been occurring for quite some time, as I expect it has, I would think that the piston that was constantly receiving too much fuel would have been weakend.
Anyway I was hoping for some opinions, info, feedback from others with more experience than I have.

 

[polo1665]

Sorry to hear about your trouble. After three years your tractor should still be under warranty for the drive train. Have you spoken to your dealer?
Sorry I can't be of more help to you. I've not heard of this particular problem. Please post when you find out more about the cause of the problem.

Mark

 

[Lunk]

If you bought it new, you should be taking to the Dealer about now. I think I'd leave out the "hindsight" part, as it may give the dealer an out on performing a warranty repair (neglected an issue which lead to ultimate failure...).

Good luck, and let us know what happens!

 

[tnaz]

Keep us up to date, man I hate it for ya!!!

tnaz

 

[farmersfeedu09]

The service guy at my dealer called back the other day. My tractor was out of warranty by 3 months. He informed me that after pleading with Branson that they would cover the cost for parts. He also told me that he had ordered a new block and it was on the way. Anyway this is good news, I was told to expect a labor bill for around 1,000 - 1,100 for about twenty hours of labor. I think this is high or he must not move to fast, but I'm not going to complain as long as they can keep it in the ballpark. So I'm glad to have some help from Branson though I feel like a well maintained tractor with only 360 hours should not have had engine failure to begin with.
I will keep all posted.

 

[farmersfeedu09]

So, Branson did pay for the engine block but the help stopped at that. So here I am months later after having paid a 1600.00 bill for the dealers other charges. I found it strange that the block Branson supplied as a replacement did not have cylinder sleeves and the original did.
I noted that all the sleeves in the original motor had been cracked and the top of one piston had crumbled. I think the piston crumbling is likely due to a bad injector. This would explain the trouble with cold starts and excessive smoke until engine was warm. I did not experience any loss of power or strange noises prior to engine failure.
As for the cracked sleeves???? Maybe a bad casting or is this normal. Branson must have had a reason for going to a sleeveless block.
So no further help from Branson though they did tell me they had almost 7,000.00 paid out for the block and crank. I asked the guy at Branson what the cost of a complete motor would be and he said 9 - 10k ballpark. I guess the mechanic or the Branson rep one was misinformed with engine prices. A lot of difference in 2,000 and 9,000.
So the next time I buy a tractor, and it will be very soon, I'm going with Kioti. Built just as heavy, I think a little more refined and have a great warranty with several tractors out there way past the 2,000 hour mark.

Hope all who read this will have better luck than I did.

 

[IH3444]

Like Uma Thurman in "Kill Bill", you need Japanese steel.

 

[Dargo]

So the next time I buy a tractor, and it will be very soon, I'm going with Kioti. Built just as heavy, I think a little more refined and have a great warranty with several tractors out there way past the 2,000 hour mark.

Oh really????? Recently I tried talking a local dealer into taking on the Kioti brand and even created a thread here looking for specifically what you stated. You know how many reported in with what you stated? Zero! I'm not knocking Kioti, but someone has filled you with a huge load of Bravo Sierra based on your statement. You may want to do a bit more research.

 

[IH3444]

Why is my loader on my Kioti cracking? And the 4WD front wheel knuckle keeps busting off my DK55? And my PowerTrac motor blew up again..... Oops, that not a Kioti! Sorry...

 

[Reg]

So, Branson did pay for the engine block but the help stopped at that. So here I am months later after having paid a 1600.00 bill for the dealers other charges. I found it strange that the block Branson supplied as a replacement did not have cylinder sleeves and the original did.
I noted that all the sleeves in the original motor had been cracked and the top of one piston had crumbled. I think the piston crumbling is likely due to a bad injector. This would explain the trouble with cold starts and excessive smoke until engine was warm. I did not experience any loss of power or strange noises prior to engine failure.
As for the cracked sleeves???? Maybe a bad casting or is this normal. Branson must have had a reason for going to a sleeveless block.
So no further help from Branson though they did tell me they had almost 7,000.00 paid out for the block and crank. I asked the guy at Branson what the cost of a complete motor would be and he said 9 - 10k ballpark. I guess the mechanic or the Branson rep one was misinformed with engine prices. A lot of difference in 2,000 and 9,000.
So the next time I buy a tractor, and it will be very soon, I'm going with Kioti. Built just as heavy, I think a little more refined and have a great warranty with several tractors out there way past the 2,000 hour mark.

Hope all who read this will have better luck than I did.

I'm trying to figure out;
a) How I can avoid such a failure (sorry to be so selfish)
b) Why going with any other manufacturer would be any less likely to give you the same problem.

I think I'm down to checking into cold start problems as soon as they show themselves.
I'm also back to thinking of the several threads we have had in ALL the forums about hard starting and the "solutions" of block heaters, lower hose heaters, heated garage storage, etc.

I'm guessing that there are only one or two injector manufacturers, hence injector failures are probably not a function of badge name.
BICBW (-:

 

[IH3444]

I am a bit surprised, the korean machines are usually most excellent. I still like the Kioti DK45S. Just don't like their loader.

 

[JoeinTX]

"This would explain the trouble with cold starts and excessive smoke until engine was warm. I did not experience any loss of power or strange noises prior to engine failure.
As for the cracked sleeves???? Maybe a bad casting or is this normal. Branson must have had a reason for going to a sleeveless block.
So no further help from Branson though they did tell me they had almost 7,000.00 paid out for the block and crank. I asked the guy at Branson what the cost of a complete motor would be and he said 9 - 10k ballpark. I guess the mechanic or the Branson rep one was misinformed with engine prices. A lot of difference in 2,000 and 9,000...."

A couple of things.

-a newer tractor with obvious low hours shouldn't be having trouble starting as you describe............hard cold starts with lots of smoke. The smoke makes me think injector issue pretty quick. Bad on the the supplier. Did this not raise any flags for you 5 or 10 or 15 starts ago? It would have me. Bad on you.

-3 months out of warranty is not "in warranty." I've known people with cars 3 months out of warranty that were denied work for problems. Couldn't provide proof of service......couldn't verify start date of problem.....etc. Warranties have defined terms that work both ways. When you say "Well, the problems started 6 months ago" it raises the legit question in return "why didn't you say something to us then?" I work in the warranty/service/repair business so I see these things all of the time and from BOTH sides of the issue.


Reading this thread does not make me think less of Branson. It does not make me want to buy a Kioti. It does simply reinforce in my mind that I must buy and use with normal sense, understand my own responsibilities, and understand when, if I haven't done my own due diligence, that I should be happy when something comes along to help out.

That Century came along and ate a good amount of $$$ for an out of warranty unit is not bad on them nor is it proof of having been wronged for you.

 

[Reg]

JoeinTX,
Yes, I kinda/sorta agree... in an IDEAL world we would jump on every little symptom at it's first or second occurrence, or 5th., 10th., etc.
In reality I think a lot of folk probably are used to seasonal equipment that is hard to start (partly) because it gets left idle for long periods.
Folk express SURPRISE that their lawn mower or snow blower "Starts right up, first pull".
I don't know how much of this carries over to tractors, but some of it probably does for some of us.

It seems to be getting hard to start, but it has been kinda cold and damp and I haven't used it for a while and that fuel has been in it a while.... line of thinking.
and it is easy to ignore that it is getting worse if it is getting worse slowly and we sub consciously make excuses for it.

I know I don't chase down every rattle.
Although the smart side of my brain says it is because two things are tapping against each other and that must be causing wear, the lazy side of my brain says it is probably just something that needs tightening and that can be done "later".

Anyway, sorry all this happened, I am going to take it to heart and really follow up on hard starting problems errrrrr,,,,,,,,, soon.

BTW, I think Kukje, Branson, Century fuel injector systems are Bosch - and so are a very large percentage of other CUTs, so the root cause is probably hard to get away from, e.g. by changing brand/badge name.

 

[farmersfeedu09]

I apologize to joeintx for not having the mechanical grasp that you do. Do you have any other helpful tips that might save me further aggravation due to inexperience?

 

[Reg]

I apologize to joeintx for not having the mechanical grasp that you do. Do you have any other helpful tips that might save me further aggravation due to inexperience?

I can't speak for Joe, but I thank you for publishing this.
I think you have done the rest of us a great service.
I don't always "Get on it" when I know there are problems.
I understand enough about mechanical things to know that very few failure modes are "self healing", but I do tend to shrug and say it will either go away or break in such a way that the steps to repair will become obvious.

I think the BIG object lesson for the rest of us from this is that hard starting isn't "just the weather" or an indication that "Ya need a block heater or heated garage".
Diesel tractors start very easily in very cold weather when they are NEW.
So hard starting is a symptom of some malfunction or component deterioration and needs to be fixed before there is a cascading consequence.

Thanks again.

\R

 

[JoeinTX]

I made it sound a little harsh and I have a bad habit of doing that sometimes. I think Reg summed it up well.

Reg is correct as well that often time we hear that rattle or see that leak or feel that vibration and say to ourselves "Ah, heck, I've got an hour to get finished before dark. Let me do that and I'll check that out next weekend." And that next weekend turns into the next week and then the next month and then you don't use it for a while and forget about and then......BOOM!....it blows up on you in 6 months when you're right in the middle of a project.

"I apologize to joeintx for not having the mechanical grasp that you do. Do you have any other helpful tips that might save me further aggravation due to inexperience?..."

Like I said above, sometime I might over-do it in an effort to make a point. That's my bad. But I do hate to see a company or a product (and all the people associated with it and depending upon it for their living) getting a bad rap when it's not necessarily their fault.


Here's one other thing. If Century has a known issue or at least an alert involving bad injectors or bad injectors resulting in the kind of block damage you describe then you might have a better case to use with them. Did you ask them about this?

 

[Reg]

I'm not exactly CUSSIN' about this thread, but I am halfway through pulling all my glow plugs and injectors out.
I will take them to the local diesel truck repair place and ask for spray pattern tests, pop pressure tests, whatever else they do, "balance - as a matched set" maybe something like that ?.
I will look for OBVIOUS signs of any one of them being different first, then we shall see.
I warmed it up on the lower hose heater before starting it this morning, then took the loader off for easier access.
DANG, but it is COLD out there.
Hopefully I can get through this and replace any parts (if needed) before I need to move snow around again.

If not, I guess it is back to the snow blower - if that will start.
Hmmmm, I keep meaning to check into the cold start problem on that thing, but

 

[Reg]

I have come to a tough point in getting the injectors out.
Simple and straightforward according to the manual, I have the excess fuel drain hose off , I also removed the air intake hose and valve cover breather for easy access.

The sticking point is the injectors themselves.
As described in the manual they are held in place with a 22mm hold down nut and they go to some length to say that it is likely to be frozen/rusted in place.
Rust penetrant, then brass drift to loosen, then hold the body of the injector with a wrench while turning the hold down nut with a 22mm wrench.
They caution to NOT ALLOW the injector body to turn as that can damage the cylinder head.
OK, so the injectors are keyed to the head and must not be turned in the keyway, I get that.
My problem is that I can only get a 22mm box end wrench a very short way onto the hold down nut before it runs into the part of the head casting around the cylinder head bolts.
What I think I need is a much thinner walled box wrench, but it would have to be REALLY THIN to get in and down there.
I have been looking at oxygen sensor removal tools and there are some 22mm ones.
The guy at autozone assured me that 7/8 is 22mm - given that 22 is already a bit too big I don't see that 7/8 would be better.

What I would REALLY like is something thin like a chain saw plug wrench, but with top side access so I can hold the injector body at the same time.

Did we used to call those "Tube wrenches" back in the whenever_ago ?
Ahhh, plumbing dept (-:

Any and all suggestions are welcome; other than take it to the dealer, since I can't get it on the trailer in its present condition and I don't want to give up on just this little thing.
I've already spent some knuckle skin.

 

[stoney2]

Could you possibly grind down your 22mm box end wrench in the area of interference and still maintain wrench integrity?.....or perhaps give it the crows feet wrench look? I like PB blaster the best.

 

[Reg]

Could you possibly grind down your 22mm box end wrench in the area of interference and still maintain wrench integrity?.....or perhaps give it the crows feet wrench look? I like PB blaster the best.

Thanks, yes I had thought of that, but...
..well, but since the thing must have been assembled somewhere ...I guess I'm not taking it easy that it needs special tools for every little thing.
North American manufactured things; maybe.
Korean manufactured things; I hope can still be repaired with hand tools (-:

I went to Autozone again and got a much closer look at their 7/8 O2 removal tool.
It turns out that the CARD it is on is marked 7/8, but the tool itself is etched 22mm.
Not their fault, Great Bend makes it and packages it that way.
So I bought that and FINALLY used it this morning to get all four injectors out.
The manual is WRONG, they are NOT keyed into the head at all.
The 22mm is the base of the injector body, it is not a hold down nut.

The local diesel specialist place told me all four injectors were "junk".
Said they couldn't get a decent spray pattern out of any of them, didn't know if they would be able to get parts to re-build them, but their off_the_top_of_the_head estimate was somewhere around $75 EACH.
Somewhere he said that bad fuel was the most likely cause.
I might buy it 6 gallons at a time, but it is where I also fill up my duramax and it is a fairly high volume station.
OK, I wanted to go to my dealer anyway, so I called.
He was in the shop half under a tractor but guessed new injectors were about $25 each, then started quizzing me.
I showed up 1/2 hour later and he tested the glow plugs - all OK.
STRONGLY disagreed on the injectors and sold me a fuel filter - which I probably agreed to partly on the suggestion of the injectors guy.

So, it is 3/4 back together, the only hassle I anticipate is having to bleed the air from each of the high pressure lines. Tomorrow's task.

The good news is that I have gone through the exercise of pulling the injectors and glow plugs, know which tools, know the sequence, etc.

As with many hardware (and software) things, often just taking them apart and re-assembling them improves things considerably - IF DONE RIGHT (-: