Buying 40 Acres- being surveyed- keep neighbors happy

[warhammer]

I had the 38 acres I was purchasing surveyed last December for $1100. It had not been surveyed for 30-40 years prior to that.
When I had a 1/3 acre industrial lot surveyed 3 years ago that was $600 and had been surveyed a few years before that.
No rhyme or reason sometimes I guess.

Warhammer

I'd love to know more about these $1200 surveys. I just ordered a survey and my first quote for 10 acres was nearly $3,000!!!

 

[MarkV]

Sometime here in the past on TBN a good idea for protecting corner survey markers was mentioned. After the surveyors placed there corner pins the owner came back and drove rebar stakes below grade three foot from the corner pins. If the surveyor's pins were "accidentally" moved by a neighbor it was an easy process with a metal detector to relocate the original position. That system struck me as good cheap insurance at the time I read it.

MarkV

 

[BungeeII]

There are different types of surveys available.

A survey in which the pins are inserted in the ground is more than, say, a survey in which they mark the corners with a wood stake and pink flag. One survey they may just be looking for pins to begin with. I'm not a pro and don't know the specific details, but I do remember having options for the survey types. There are surveys provided for mortgage purposes that simply verify your neighbors are where they belong, but doesn't supply you with pins in the ground to reference in the future.

 

[chadincolo]

Personally, I would wait until after the deal closes, then personally go to each neighbor (not call, go sit down) and "introduce" yourself as the new neighbor. Doesn't matter if you already know them or not. Be honest, tell them your plans, discuss any discrepencies on the survey, discuss anything they are using the land for, your liability concerns if they are, ask if you can work something out (yearling hunting lease if you don't mind, hunting buddies, whatever)...You may find some who are peeved you took the land without them knowing it, they wanted to buy it...appologize, say you didn't know their situation, you were offered the land (or offered to buy), deal was made, you weren't aware of other situations...take the high road, if they are mad, they will be mad. Be humble, be nice, don't be confrontational, but make sure they know you own it. Leave all your contact info if they need anything, offer to help. And I agree, good fences make good neighbors! Even a 2 strand barbless wire fence with posts 20 feet on center, ON the property line is better than "that tree line"...

The one lady using your land for a driveway, tell her your lawyer advises you to get the permission to use it in writing, write a simple lease for 50 years at $1 per year, pay first year, balance payable at the end of the lease in one lump sum if no changes to lease are made, lease is broken at change of property ownership, lease can be broken by any party with X months notice...and have it recorded at the courthouse, then there will never be an adverse possesion case. Chances are the property won't stay in the same hands for 50 years, the lease will be broken and no additional payment required, but you will be covered from adverse possesion. If it does go 49 years, give notice before it's up, with the offer of a new lease for 50 years at $1.01 per year, same terms...

And congrats, looks like a great piece of land! Trees and an area like that are unheard of in my area, if there are trees on a piece of land, someone planted each and every tree and watered them until established...

 

[Ridgewalker]

Bill, I think I'd tell your neighbor that I was going to take "adverbial possession" of my property. That is quickly. I'd also give him firm orders to stay off my property and explain trespassing and criminal trespassing. If he comes onto your land which you have identified with proper authority (the survey) after you have given him notice, and he does any damage to a stucture you have built (like a fence), then he exposes himself to much higher penalty that's normally enforced as a criminal penalty instead of a civil case.

If he already had a crop planted, what I would probably do is to tell the gent that I would lease him the land and write up an agreement to do that for $1 until he could harvest his crop. Be sure to set a specific date for termination of the lease. Then, after the lease period, I'd do my fence or take full possession of my land. I'd probably offer that before making any other demands. Take the "high road" first.

Ditto on that...the farmer who lived behind my stepdad's house farmed a 20' wide by 4/10 mile strip of his land on their border for 20 years or more. When my stepdad finally got a survey he found out the true line and had it fenced.
The farmer asked about it, my stepdad showed him the survey and that was the end of it.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I do not feel you should tell your new neighbors your future plans. From my experience, if someone knows you want to build a house behind theirs and they don't want it there they will start to fight you well before you get to break ground. If you are going to build there, follow the local laws, get the right permits and go about building in a manner that keeps you happy without upsetting your neighbors too much. Some people are going to complain no matter what. Don't give these type of people any extra time to come up with a way to fight you.

I do not have very many neighbors here and the few that border our main farm do not bother us and we do not bother them. We all do our own things and get along fine. None of us clear our plans with the others first. We just go about our lives and when we see each other we say hi. That is what is great about living in the country, you generally have privacy.

I seem to recall a thread on here about someones neighbor taking them to court because they were building their house in the field they bought but that field was the neighbors view and the house ruined their view . Some people will find anything to complain about so don't tell people any more then they "need" to know.

 

[TCBoomer]

Sometime here in the past on TBN a good idea for protecting corner survey markers was mentioned. After the surveyors placed there corner pins the owner came back and drove rebar stakes below grade three foot from the corner pins. If the surveyor's pins were "accidentally" moved by a neighbor it was an easy process with a metal detector to relocate the original position. That system struck me as good cheap insurance at the time I read it.

MarkV

GREAT ADVICE!!...and I did just that when I had my survey done using 6' pieces of rebar. And along the boundary lines where wood stakes were placed, I drove a 6" rebar at everyone of those. In addition I took many many many many digital pics.

 

[MikePA]

Sorry, it's not great advice. The stakes, usually with a brightly colored ribbon tied to it, which surveyors place in corners and on the lines are not corner pins or property line markers. They are there to give people a general idea of where the corner and lines are and are near the line, not on the line. Driving in rebar on your own will only serve to confuse all future surveyors.

 

[MarkV]

Sorry, it's not great advice. The stakes, usually with a brightly colored ribbon tied to it, which surveyors place in corners and on the lines are not corner pins or property line markers. They are there to give people a general idea of where the corner and lines are and are near the line, not on the line. Driving in rebar on your own will only serve to confuse all future surveyors.

Mike your point is well taken and I can see how additional rebar or such could cause confusion for future surveyors. My corners are marked and recorded as '1/2 inch galvanized pipe' so I believe these to be the true corner pins. I have had some moved in the past either by accident or on purpose. Do you know of a better way to relocate original points short of paying a surveyor to come out again?

MarkV

 

[MikePA]

Do you know of a better way to relocate original points short of paying a surveyor to come out again?

Nope, sorry.

 

[TCBoomer]

Sorry, it's not great advice. The stakes, usually with a brightly colored ribbon tied to it, which surveyors place in corners and on the lines are not corner pins or property line markers. They are there to give people a general idea of where the corner and lines are and are near the line, not on the line. Driving in rebar on your own will only serve to confuse all future surveyors.

You mean like this?

Yeah I know the location of the corner is the pin with a cap and not then stake. And after giving it some thought, I can understand why you would say driving my own rebar could confuse a surveyor...ie multiple pins found at a corner point. But as long as the ID cap is still present on the corner pin, wouldn't he use that one? I drove the 6' piece 6" inside of the corner pin in case my neighbor decides to remove the actual corner pin. Prior to hiring a surveyor I tried searching for my corner pins using a metal detector, with minimal success. So I figured if I ever had the need to locate any property line or corner in the future, I was assured I'd find them with a metal detector.

To take it one step further, your reply comes across to me as though you are saying a surveyor might rely on a piece of rebar instead of using a GPS, transit, etc. Is that what you mean?

 

[TCBoomer]

The stakes, usually with a brightly colored ribbon tied to it, which surveyors place on the lines are not property line markers. They are there to give people a general idea of where the lines are and are near the line, not on the line.

Ah...now I have to disagree with you
note I edited/deleted part of your post for a reason, so bear with me.

When I hired my surveyor, I specifically asked for all the corners to be located and marked as well as marking 2 boundary lines. One is about 500' in length and the other is about 250'. A pin with cap was set midway through these 2 different property lines and then a number of wooden stakes were also set. Those wooden stakes were in fact set on the property line. After my project was completed, I removed those wooden stakes and drove a 6' piece of rebar in it's place.

Again, I just did this for piece of mind and knowing that if the need arose, I could locate them easily with a metal detector. What I don't follow is how would these specific pieces of rebar, that I drove in place, cause any confusion for a surveyor?

 

[MikePA]

To take it one step further, your reply comes across to me as though you are saying a surveyor might rely on a piece of rebar instead of using a GPS, transit, etc. Is that what you mean?

We always relied first on what's in the deed. If it said "to a corner marked with a concrete monument", that's what we looked for. We used the instruments, plus the distances and directions in the deed, to determine where we should look for the monument. Once found, we used the instruments to verify the directions and distances in the deed.

What I don't follow is how would these specific pieces of rebar, that I drove in place, cause any confusion for a surveyor?

On the line, they wouldn't be as confusing as in a corner, or at other points of change in direction.

 

[rtimgray]

When we had our place surveyed a couple of years ago, the pins were installed near the corners, but were not the corner markers. On the actual survey, the location of the corner is located relative to the pins that were set. The surveyor said the reason is that (in our case) the entire property of 140 acres is surrounded by fence, and the corner posts are the corners of the property.

I can tell you this much about it - I have a total of 5 or 6 neighbors (I'm not sure if the property behind me is together or if father and son each own part of it). We all get along and as far as I am aware, we don't ever talk to each other about fencing. I guess part of it is that almost all of the fenclines run through wooded areas - the fences do not run straight, but rather where trees allow them in a relatively straight course. I am positive there are some areas that I lose some land to the neighbors and areas where they lose land to me, but that small portion of ground is not worth a dispute. I suppose in the future we might end up fighting about a $20,000 veneer grade walnut tree that is on the border, but I am not aware of any valuable trees in the woods.

In the open areas, we just have fencelines going as straight at they can between the recognized corners. I would assume that the fences are more or less on the property line, and we've not had any arguments about it yet, nor do I hope that we do.

Of course, all of the above is subject to change should new owners come to the area, property be subdivided, etc. That is one reason why we had the survey performed - to get it in writing while everyone is (more or less) happy.

BTW, the pins for our corners are set near the corners, but the reference points are actually set up well inside the property boundaries on interior fencelines. There are probably a dozen points set up at various spots throughout the 140 acres. This will allow future surveyors to locate know points and set up on them, in case corners have to be verified.

Take care.

 

[heehaw]

i have a friend, who along with his neighbor, put in a fence, 30+ years ago, where they both agreed the line was located: the neighbor passed away, so the friend gets a letter from an attorney, asking if he has a claim to any of the neighbors property: of course he relies that he has no claim: a month later he gets a letter saying he has 30 days to move the fence, according to the survey, its a couple feet over the line: or it will be dozed down: now he has lots of cattle to keep in, so he was out there moving the fence..things can happen that are out of good neighbors control. so do what you can to protect yourself.
heehaw

 

[rox]

i have a friend, who along with his neighbor, put in a fence, 30+ years ago, where they both agreed the line was located: the neighbor passed away, so the friend gets a letter from an attorney, asking if he has a claim to any of the neighbors property: of course he relies that he has no claim: a month later he gets a letter saying he has 30 days to move the fence, according to the survey, its a couple feet over the line: or it will be dozed down: now he has lots of cattle to keep in, so he was out there moving the fence..things can happen that are out of good neighbors control. so do what you can to protect yourself.
heehaw

I think the moral of that story is that if you get a letter liek that from an attorny you best go see an attorney. I would rather visit my own attorney and pay his fee rather than move a fence. Well I guess it would depends on how long the fence is.

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

Well, here's an update.....

The surveyors have been doing their thing all last week. The told the widow next door that it will take them two weeks. My bank told me that once they have the survey in hand, it'll take 20 days to close......so that puts us closing around 20th of August. Right when I go back to work! Oh well, I've been spending my time getting the tractor ready, the bush hog and the flail mower.......and, the longer we wait, the better off we'll be financially.

Last night, during a huge thunder storm BTW, I went out to look at what they have surveyed. Well, I know they are surveying for legal purposes but I would have rather SEEN the lines. They are placing MANY of the little, what looks like stainless steel spikes, off of the line by about 20'. That's fine but I'd sure like for the neighbors to really see where the lines are. They might not be finished so maybe I'm a bit presumptive. Also, if this is all they do to satisfy the legalities for the bank, then I think it would be well worth paying the surveyor to come back out and place permanent pins........it would make me feel better. I know they are avoiding the lines because they have been growing for 50+ years and they are thick!!! I could take some weed killer and my string trimmer with a blade and cut out the spots I want them to mark permanently.

I hadn't been in the woods during a down pour since I was about 12-15.......I felt like a kid again being back in my ole' stomping ground and it pouring the rain in the woods......VERY peaceful........just what I've always wanted to go back to.....I saw lots of deer, a fox and several other things that never "showed" themselves......did I say it was great?

I owe the bank a couple of documents, the survey is almost complete......my tractor tires are starting to dry-rot and I'm get antsy!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Well, here's an update.....

The surveyors have been doing their thing all last week. The told the widow next door that it will take them two weeks. My bank told me that once they have the survey in hand, it'll take 20 days to close......so that puts us closing around 20th of August. Right when I go back to work! Oh well, I've been spending my time getting the tractor ready, the bush hog and the flail mower.......and, the longer we wait, the better off we'll be financially.

Last night, during a huge thunder storm BTW, I went out to look at what they have surveyed. Well, I know they are surveying for legal purposes but I would have rather SEEN the lines. They are placing MANY of the little, what looks like stainless steel spikes, off of the line by about 20'. That's fine but I'd sure like for the neighbors to really see where the lines are. They might not be finished so maybe I'm a bit presumptive. Also, if this is all they do to satisfy the legalities for the bank, then I think it would be well worth paying the surveyor to come back out and place permanent pins........it would make me feel better. I know they are avoiding the lines because they have been growing for 50+ years and they are thick!!! I could take some weed killer and my string trimmer with a blade and cut out the spots I want them to mark permanently.

I hadn't been in the woods during a down pour since I was about 12-15.......I felt like a kid again being back in my ole' stomping ground and it pouring the rain in the woods......VERY peaceful........just what I've always wanted to go back to.....I saw lots of deer, a fox and several other things that never "showed" themselves......did I say it was great?

I owe the bank a couple of documents, the survey is almost complete......my tractor tires are starting to dry-rot and I'm get antsy!

Don't get too worried yet, when they are done you should have permanent stakes marked out at the boundry points. If you want boundry lines marked so many feet you should talk to them and let them know. Even if you have to pay them a little extra on the side to do so it would be cheaper then trying to get them to come back and do it.

 

[Champy]

Ditto what RobertinNY said about marking lines now.........after my 34 acres were surveyed, we discovered they only marked the corners and every point where the line changed direction - which is ok - but the southern boundary line was over a 1/4 mile long: across a field; through the woods; down a hill; across a creek; etc.... neither my neighbor or I could accurately "sight" where the property line went between us.

I called the surveyor to come out and add some more stakes/pins to the S property line (for clarity) and they quoted another $400 to the already $3300 we had paid. Needless to say my neighbor and I mutually agreed to a best guess direction for the fencing that I set with my GPS device.

Lesson here is to have them do the boundary work that YOU want - while they are already there the first time!

 

[dmccarty]

Lesson here is to have them do the boundary work that YOU want - while they are already there the first time!

And then keep the line cleared.

I had a line marked back in 2001ish. It was well worth the dollars since it kept someone from putting their septic field on my land. Then the extra pipe the surveyors put in the ground kept the neighbors dog kennel fence off my land. They had already put in posts 6 feet tall on my land when I called them on it. You would think if you where putting up a fence you would know where the location of the property line....

I simply did not have the time or the right tools to keep this line cleared. Its 850ish feet long through the woods. Doing it by hand or with the hand held brush cutter was not going to happen with the time I had. I have cleared our road and other property lines with the brush cutter and chainsaw but I just did not have time to keep this line cleared. I know have a DR brush cutter that will clear the line and keep it cleared in a lot less time with a lot less effort. Eventually I'll clear all of the property lines so that the tractor can keep things under control but it will take years to do. Its the DR in the mean time.

But I'll have the surveyors back to put in more pipes along the line and remark it before I clear it. Eventually there will be a fence.

So get them to put in pipes so that you can easily go from corner to corner. And then keep it cleared.

Later,
Dan