Buying a first Tractor; HST or not?

[Golfgar4]

I think we scared him away. He hasn't replied since the beginning of the second page! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

 

[Ozarker]

Ain't that the truth?

I remember when my kids got into Soccer and a few of us dads always went to practice to help out. We use to join the practice and those kids could run you ragged up and down that field. I still feel it sometimes.

What a great time that was!!!!!!

 

[gordon]

You wanted a play by play so I'll try to give you one.
First time we were building a berm behind a house and they were dumping dirt in the front and we were hauling it around to the back. The other tractor was a John Deere and the owner has a landscaping business and owns a small farm. That is who hired me to help him move the dirt.

Next time that I worked hand in hand with another tractor operator was cutting down grade for the driveway and installing ditches, finish grading. The dozer was cutting grade and we were running the dirt to make a long sweeping landscape berm. The other tractor was a L35 same person who whipped my butt on a bobcat below. He runs a backhoe for his day job and has a bobcat service on the side.

Now those were the times that I was faster working next to another tractor. Here is a time that I got my tail whipped.

He was on a bobcat and I was on mine. We were running dirt and rough grading around townhomes, we also did a days worth of single houses. He was doing a long front and side to my rear. The dirt piles were pretty much the same distance away from each other. Reason he hired me was that he was backed up in this subdivision and we worked for a few days getting everything caught back up. He sure could make that thing dance.

So TBone those are a few of the play by play times that I've worked side by side with someone else. Were a couple of the jobs better suited for much larger tractors. I would say yes, it took us longer to complete the job but we did use our own equipment and got our hourly rate so that is what counts to me anyway.

Ok with that said I well realize with the tone of your post that your rather upset with my tone of my post. But I will say this I have no one to impress on this or any other forum. Yes I may get carried away in some of my posts but that is me.

Now after this thread I really don't give two hoots about any of it. It's just not worth it. But you asked about been there and done that so I replied to your post. Hopefully I have answered all of your questions with my reply.

So in the best interest of tbn I'll now say SEE YA LATER AND HAVE A GREAT DAY

Gordon

 

[MChalkley]

Richard - I'm just happy you still don't mind expressing yourself... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I have no problem "agreeing to disagree". Of course, the trick of disagreeing is always doing so without being "disagreeable".

I think we actually accomplished something in that discussion, though. My issue with the HST vs. gear debates, and the point I'm most sensitive to, is the "HST's are for wimps" (notice that I did not use that statement in my earlier post, because I did not want to imply you said it - you didn't), and "HST's are for beginners". As I said, I consider that an underhanded form of psychological pressure, much like the subliminal popcorn images at the old drive-in's. It's not a fair debate when it gets taken to the level of a personal attack. As long as we don't go there, I can take any degree of dissent, discussion, debate, etc. You didn't mean it that way, so that's cleared up. There's room here for everyone, and their opinion, too, for that matter. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Theoretically, we will never have to discuss this issue again - we can just refer everyone to this thread. I hereby formally withdraw. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[gordon]

Mark wrote <font color=blue>Theoretically, we will never have to discuss this issue again - we can just refer everyone to this thread. I hereby formally withdraw. </font color=blue>

Yes in the best interest of TBN I withdraw as well.

Gordon

 

[JohnMiller3]

Hi Pete...

First... he has to register... then he can answer ya... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Can you imagine... going to all the "other" posts and "replying" to certain "unregistered" posters... now they're dying to answer... then they register... /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

(Just having fun - Muhammad... you know my sick sense of humor.../w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif) /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[_RaT_]

Hey Mark, I refuse to even get involved anymore with folks that discuss hydrostatic as if they knew what they were talking about when its obvious they haven't a good grasp of how advantageous it is. I have so many more hours on a shuttle transmission or as JD calls it "power reverser" (sounds like it only works in reverse with that moniker I should think Power Direction Changer or Power Forward and/or Reverse directional direction adjusting device would be better) yet with 125 hours on my hydrostatic know that it is hands down nicer for most of what I do as well it seems for what many folks here use it for. I keep hearing this but
"gear tractors have a precise ground speed" so I suppose when your planting a bean in the ground you don't get them planted to close as you would with a hydrostatic. My first comment would be, so a bean planted 5" apart versus 4.9999357" is going to really impeade on the production and costs.

Secondly, do gear tractors not have a diesel engine that when loaded will slow down (my "geared" International does) I'm talking compacts, you know the 40 HP types. For example, if your JD 4600 was carrying a 1000lb bag of bean seeds which continued to be planted thereby lowering the weight with each bean planted, unless you compensate with engine RPM, would you not start increasing in speed? Remember, we're talking limited HP, not hundreds like the real big farmers use at least here in CA. Uneven ground, soil textures and weight will all change the loads on any tractor. The careful farmer will undoubtedly pay attention to such minute detail, but then he's probably using something other then a a compact, my guess anyway. Even though I live in perhaps the most productive agricultural region of the US, I've yet to go out and actually watch them. I have noticed that John Deere seems to be the ag tractor of choice.

How many folks really use precise ground speed with their compacts to the extent that is that important to maintain it to within 1/100 of a mph, 1/50 mph or even as little as 1/10 mph? Just curious, maybe its just me that goes all nilly willy around the place at wildly gyrating speeds on my hydrostatic drive tractor which actually has a whole bunch of gears.

In the end I figure, give the new tractor buyer some info about hydrostatic, geared tractors are pretty obvious as the car you drive be it an automatic which simply shifts gears automatically hence the name or manual have pretty much the same principals. I never have followed the HST is like and automatic comparrision as if thats your thought, get going 40 or 50 MPH and stab the car in reverse. A hydrostatic can go full blast in high about 15 to 18 MPH and you can in fact hit reverse any ol stinkin time with no ill affects. Thats the real beauty about using my hydrostatic, its got Super Duper Power Reverser/Forwarder (SDPRF) , Super Duper Speed Contol (SDSC) and Super Duper Automatic Stopping Control (SDASC) and to top it off, BSHYT or Baby Soft Handling of Your Tractor)

Rat...

 

[Soundguy]

Mileage varies by model and manufacturer. My NH 1920 with a gear tranny has a 2 stage clutch, ist stage kills the drivetrain, snd stage kills the pto. ( the 1920 also comes in a shuttle shift model as well. )

Soundguy

<font color=blue>most gear drive CUT tractors have "live" or "independant" PTO's

<font color=green>Really? I didn't think so. That's why I said that it would surprise me if it were the same. The clutch on my B7500HSD will disengage the tranny and the PTO - isn't it the same for most/all B series?

 

[Soundguy]

With respect, your own comments contradict themselves. You state that a HST transmission can provide the same power to the impliment as a direct drive, but you also mention the power loss difference..... both cannot be true statements.. if there is a positive power loss, then there is not equal power to the impliment, just simple conversational logic. As far as converting engine hp into hydraulic power, then converting it back to driven power via a hydro-motor, or torque converter, there will be loss, more so than through the direct drivetrain system. That is why most vehicle auto transmissions employ a lock up torque converter to give you similar fuel economy to a standard, when at a stable speed.
It is just physics... we havn't yet mastered lossless power conversions at the hydraulic level ( or mechanical, but this can be accomplished with less loss than w/ hydro ).

Given (2) 30 engine hp tractors, one with gear trany, one with hst ( otherwise identical for practical purposes ), transmitted power to the wheels or the pto cannot be equal on both models, unless the gear tranny has been intentionally limited by design, so as to perform at the same level as the HST model. Simply put, there is a direct power transfer from piston to wheel on the gear tranny.. there is indirect piston to wheel power transfer on the HST. The indirect power medium is hydro fluid.

I'm not saying either is better.. both have their advantages and disadvantages.. I'm merely arguing your comment.

Soundguy

<font color=blue>Now my comments, there is a reason why people pay a premium for HST. Bottom line, it is more complicated and easier to use. Aside from issues of power loss, there is no application that a geared machine can perform that an HST machine cannot do with the same amount of power to the implement or tool being used. The converse is not true.

 

[TxSam]

I'm going to change brands on you here, but my TC35 (w/ shuttle) has a live pto. It has two clutches, one for the drive tranny and a hand operated one for the pto. I'm unsure about the Kubotas, except to say that save for the B7400/7500 and the BX1800/2200 the rest of the B series are all HST I believe. Unsure about the L series or Grand L series, I would expect that the Grand L's have live pto on the gear trannies.

I think thats about equal to my $.02! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif