Canopy - Clamp or Drill mount to ROPS??

[Soundguy]

What do you know.. already something to comment on.

I tend to prefer doing things as they were engineered by original equipment manufacturers, as opposed to add-on, aftermarket compromise methods "designed" by someone who had nothing to do with the original ROPS structure design. I'm more than positive that Ford (New Holland), Massey Ferguson, John Deere, Kubota, ect.... TEST and research their products before they market them. While there may be some manufacturers that employ clamped on canopies (O.E.M.), all of them I've ever seen are firmly, positively BOLTED directly to the ROPS. .

The canopy on my Nh 7610s is dealer oem for that rops.. it's clamp on.. not bolted thru the rops. The metal is thick plate that is formed to make a 4 sided sandwhich on the rops upright. It's wide and takes severalal bolts to secure each side.

No one suggested "punching holes in seat belts". Not sure where that analogy came from. Certainly not from anything previously mentioned in this (or any other) post.

Sure it's been talked about... Drilling holes in a rops.. punching holes in a seatbelt... they both = modifying a safety device in a way that voids it's certification....that's as plain as you can get when it comes to an analogy.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

What do you know.. already something to comment on.



The canopy on my Nh 7610s is dealer oem for that rops.. it's clamp on.. not bolted thru the rops. The metal is thick plate that is formed to make a 4 sided sandwhich on the rops upright. It's wide and takes severalal bolts to secure each side.





Sure it's been talked about... Drilling holes in a rops.. punching holes in a seatbelt... they both = modifying a safety device in a way that voids it's certification....that's as plain as you can get when it comes to an analogy.

Soundguy

Ok a BAD analogy then..... Find me a seatbelt that came with drilled and tapped holes in an O.E.M. situation. I've already got 2 ROPS units that did such. And that's what we've been talking about for the last few post's.... Drilled and tapped holes IN EXACTLY THE SAME LOCATION, THE EXACT SAME SIZE, AND WITH THE EXACT SAME TYPE OF FASTENERS AS A FACTORY INSTALLED ROPS/CANOPY. Talking about chopping up a seatbelt with a razor blade as a direct comparison to accurately drilling and tapping holes in a metal ROPS in a manner exactly the same as was common practice of the manufacturer isn't quite an analogy. That's more like a polititian shifting focus to confuse. And THAT is about as plain as it needs to be.

No one disputes the "certification". I would bet my life that any "certification" would fall uselessly to the wayside in any court proceeding on an OWNER INSTALLED ROPS, or canopy, when a GOOD attorney started in on a jury. And that's what we're talking about in this thread. OWNER INSTALLED. And before it ever came to lawyers, I'd simply prefer to have the canopy do its job, the ROPS do IT'S job, and I walk away unharmed. For that, I'd just as soon have mine done with O.E.M. parts and installation techniques.

In the end, we're talking broad generalizations on a subject that has it's case by case peculiarities. I suppose we've beat this horse long enough. The final decision is for each and every one of us to make based on our own situation. I doubt seriously we'll ever see the day when we all agree on everything.

I just hope that everyone's ROPS does it's job if and when you ever "test" it.

For the record, I've seen ONE ROPS failure in all my years. It was the bolts that attached it to the axle that failed.....CHEAP grade 3 carraige bolts.

 

[Soundguy]

Ok a BAD analogy then..... Find me a seatbelt that came with drilled and tapped holes in an O.E.M. situation. I've already got 2 ROPS units that did such. And that's what we've been talking about for the last few post's.... Drilled and tapped holes IN EXACTLY THE SAME LOCATION, THE EXACT SAME SIZE, AND WITH THE EXACT SAME TYPE OF FASTENERS AS A FACTORY INSTALLED ROPS/CANOPY. Talking about chopping up a seatbelt with a razor blade as a direct comparison to accurately drilling and tapping holes in a metal ROPS in a manner exactly the same as was common practice of the manufacturer isn't quite an analogy. That's more like a polititian shifting focus to confuse. And THAT is about as plain as it needs to be.

Farm.. with respect.. you are not the only poster in this thread. I was making general references with -ALL- the previous posts in this thread, and other " i'm drilling my rops'' posts found here on tbn in mind.. not just your specific posts about how you modified your rops possibly exactly like the manufacturer/dealer did. And yes.. here on TBN we certiantly have seen people ADDING drilled holes to rops to mount things like lamps. That IMHO.. is adding a drilled hole to a place where one would otherwise not be.

Here is the analogy.. spelled out... I'll use my rops as a comparison as I'm familiar with it.... it has -0- holes drilled in it.... only holes appear at the mounting point.. and are a factory welded on assembly, designed for mounting..... compair that to a seatbelt with -0- holes in it.. the only 'hole' is the eyelet at the end.. again.. a oem assembly designed to be used to mount the seatbelt. That's a pretty straight cut clear analogy. If I drilled a hole into my rops.. that would be just like cutting a hole in a seatbelt with a hole punch.... I don't see the confusion in that analogy. It's either modifed or it ain't....

In fact.. the only thing i do see is a bunch of guys that have probably modified thier rops.. possibly in a way that voids their certification, and now they are all looking for public 'feel good/ everyone else is doing it' justification in doing so. Whether it is a 'can't happen to me' .. or 'mines as good as the factory engineered and tested one' argument.. doesn't really matter. it all boils down to 2 facts:

Ya either got a factory rops, supplied exactly as recieved from the dealer/ factory, with certification...

or

Ya got a piece of scrap metal that looks like a rops, but has no certification because it has a hole drilled in it, or a bead of weld on it that was not that way when it left the factory or the dealer.

The possible exception to those above statements are the situations where a user has made a modification to the rops int he same manner as the dealer would have, presumably producing an qeual product as the end result, thus possibly coming out with an intact rops certification.....

that's pretty much it... not much room for grey area.. ya either got a 'rops' or a 'roll bar'.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Farm.. with respect.. you are not the only poster in this thread. I was making general references with -ALL- the previous posts in this thread, and other " i'm drilling my rops'' posts found here on tbn in mind.. not just your specific posts about how you modified your rops possibly exactly like the manufacturer/dealer did. And yes.. here on TBN we certiantly have seen people ADDING drilled holes to rops to mount things like lamps. That IMHO.. is adding a drilled hole to a place where one would otherwise not be.

Here is the analogy.. spelled out... I'll use my rops as a comparison as I'm familiar with it.... it has -0- holes drilled in it.... only holes appear at the mounting point.. and are a factory welded on assembly, designed for mounting..... compair that to a seatbelt with -0- holes in it.. the only 'hole' is the eyelet at the end.. again.. a oem assembly designed to be used to mount the seatbelt. That's a pretty straight cut clear analogy. If I drilled a hole into my rops.. that would be just like cutting a hole in a seatbelt with a hole punch.... I don't see the confusion in that analogy. It's either modifed or it ain't....

In fact.. the only thing i do see is a bunch of guys that have probably modified thier rops.. possibly in a way that voids their certification, and now they are all looking for public 'feel good/ everyone else is doing it' justification in doing so. Whether it is a 'can't happen to me' .. or 'mines as good as the factory engineered and tested one' argument.. doesn't really matter. it all boils down to 2 facts:

Ya either got a factory rops, supplied exactly as recieved from the dealer/ factory, with certification...

or

Ya got a piece of scrap metal that looks like a rops, but has no certification because it has a hole drilled in it, or a bead of weld on it that was not that way when it left the factory or the dealer.

The possible exception to those above statements are the situations where a user has made a modification to the rops int he same manner as the dealer would have, presumably producing an qeual product as the end result, thus possibly coming out with an intact rops certification.....

that's pretty much it... not much room for grey area.. ya either got a 'rops' or a 'roll bar'.

Soundguy

"with respect", I'm the one you were QUOTING. That would rule out any other postings as ones you were replying to, wouldn't it?

And for the record, I share the same opinion of mounting lights directly to a ROPS structure.

Fotunately, such matters aren't to be decided for everyone by you, or me, or any ONE person . You have your opinion on what constitutes a SAFE ROPS, I have mine. I see things as they are. A certification won't in and of itself, save anyone. A well installed RETROFIT ROPS might. Dealing with tractors that are old enough to be prior to John Deere releasing patents to all other brands to start installing what has become the standard design ROPS on "modern era" tractors, any ROPS used will be retrofit.

In the final count, I'm responsible for MY saftey and well being. I'd much prefer to install a ROPS as I see fit, piece of paper or NOT to "certify" it.

 

[Soundguy]

"with respect", I'm the one you were QUOTING. That would rule out any other postings as ones you were replying to, wouldn't it?

.

I'm having the conversation with you, thus having to reply to you in order to make the quotes. The ideas we.. or at least 'I' am talking about, are from all posts / posters here. The thought that you cannot discuss other posts when making a reply seems odd in itself. I see no reason why replying to a specific message would preclude bringing up other message 's topics. I see it here all the time. One message to address many people. Not only are these messages person to person.. but they are also person to group.. I.E. .. 'broadcast'. If we had been conversin via PM, and this topic came up.. then I could see where the confusion may apply.. but not in an open forum.. espcially since I have been pretty specific in what I was stating, and did specify in previous messages that my arguments were directed 'less' at the oem style of rops mods, like you spoke of, and 'more' towards the types of mods most likely to void a rops certification.. I.E. welding, or drilling holes in places not consistent with oem/dealer modifications.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I'm having the conversation with you, thus having to reply to you in order to make the quotes. The ideas we.. or at least 'I' am talking about, are from all posts / posters here. The thought that you cannot discuss other posts when making a reply seems odd in itself. I see no reason why replying to a specific message would preclude bringing up other message 's topics. I see it here all the time. One message to address many people. Not only are these messages person to person.. but they are also person to group.. I.E. .. 'broadcast'. If we had been conversin via PM, and this topic came up.. then I could see where the confusion may apply.. but not in an open forum.. espcially since I have been pretty specific in what I was stating, and did specify in previous messages that my arguments were directed 'less' at the oem style of rops mods, like you spoke of, and 'more' towards the types of mods most likely to void a rops certification.. I.E. welding, or drilling holes in places not consistent with oem/dealer modifications.. etc.

Soundguy

In all the specifics I'm talking about regarding YOUR replying to MY comments, they were specific in nature to the post you quoted (me) from.

There was no confusion on MY part.

I have no problem talking to, with, or about any other participants in this or any other thread. It simply evolved into a 2-man debate.


And has probably reached the point where it should just end.

 

[Soundguy]

The indisputable fact is that is it not a personal conversation.. it is a public post to a public forum, and thus not a debate solely between 2 people. All the forum members here can participate, some have, as recently as yesterday. if this thread continues, I expect more to participate. Had this been a private message, then I would have expected our responses to have been limited to the scope of only our respective messages. however.. this obviously isn't the case.

I do agree that the thread has probably outlived it's usefull ness. All that are here are in 2 camps....either those that say that you shouldn't weld or drill a rops, and thus void it's certification, and those that do, or have drilled / welded and likely voided rops certification, and are now kicking the proverbial can around trying to justify their actions. ( or keep their head in the sand about the liability issues ).

My comments have been very specific as to what i was refering to when i spoke about voiding rops certification. Looking back on this thread alone, I find a message on each of the first 2 pages either asking about drilling a rops, or someone stating they did infact weld/cut/drill rops.. etc. I stopped searching at that point.

Soundguy

 

[bill177]

For IslandTractor: You said, "I don't think a product liability lawyer is seriously going to take a contingency based case to go after an individual with a modified ROPS."

You missed the point - completely. The scenario is when you are injured by the tractor - and the ROPs are involved - you will have very much damaged your chances of fair recovery by any modification that can be construed to weaken the original design. Whether factual or in lawyeresse is unimportant, the defense will be rigorous about the modification.

Not very different than how a dealer will defend their inaction on a warranty issue if you cannot prove, by receipt and record, that the tractor, automobile, whatever, was maintained properly.

Although you may not care for the post, it is quite appropriate for these times. Sorry if I have offended you.

 

[keeney]

In summary, the opinions appear to fall along these wide ranges:

RE: Certification (generally agreed):
Modifications generally void Mfg's certification.

Certification is required in many cases where employees use the equipment.

Re-certification of the modificaiton is infeasible for most situations.


RE: Actual Safety (wide range of responses):
Any uncertified or amatuer-designed changes are Russian Roulette.
vs.
Prudently-placed small holes are likely to have no effect on actual safety.


RE: Resale (differing levels of importance):
Dealers and other buyers requiring certified, non-modified ROP's may discount what they will pay so as to cover replacement.

Other private buyers may not care.

"I will never sell! I plan to be buried with (or under) my tractor."


RE: Liability (strong agreement that anybody can get sued at anytime):

Can be worrisome to think somebody else might get hurt.

OEM, Insurance Co., Injured, or Injured's estate may be able to argue ROP's failure was caused by modifications and thus avoid and pass liability to modifier.

In cases where certification is required by law, puts an employeer in position of having unclean hands when it comes to blame.

 

[mudcat]

That pretty much sums it up!