Egon
Epic Contributor
Dag Nab Bird, here I was thinking all Texans were just naturally born Cowboys. 
cattle start-up questions..
- Thread starter plumboy
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Farmwithjunk
Super Member
texasjohn said:
Just the opposite point of view from me. I spent 35 years with anywhere from 4 to as many as 20 head on my place. It wasn't highly profitable in the best of times, but I made a few bucks. In the worst of times, we ended up with a lot of our cattle in family freezers. Rather than lose money and have NOTHING to show for it, we ATE our losses, literally.
I had the opportunity to raise my kids with them involved in 4H and FFA. (That was reason #1 why I had cattle in most years)
Farming is inherently dangerous. No denying that. As far as the heartache and frustration, you just described being married and/or raising kids. And there's a long list of folks doing that every day. All in all, I'd do it AGAIN if I was to wake up and find myself 25 years old all over again. (Cattle that is, I'll get back with you on the married again thing)
Without a bit of background in the subject, I'd say the learning curve will be steep. But like anything a person wants bad enough, raising cattle can be done without all the dread and fear.
I'd even suggest running an add in the local newspaper for a "partner" on a very limited basis. Someone who knows a little about the business who'll be willing to help with the first few years for a small percentage, or maybe a freezer full of beef every now and then.
RobJ
Elite Member
Get the tax man involved early. Take every deduction you can!!
jwcinpk
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I agree there will be little profit in monetary terms, but the other stuff will be abundant. There are too many people farming for there to be no money in it. For me there is atleast a good tax break.
The trick to making any money is not to spend any more than you have to on things you need. I'm not saying starve your animals by any means, but don't buy unnecassary things and you might see a little profit from time to time. I agree about getting with the county agent. Mine here has been no help to me, but it's worth a try.
As far as grass goes it's hard to beat orchard grass in my book. Lots of folks here have fescue. I am not real fond of it. There are lots of good grasses out there. Someone in your area can tell you what works best in your parts. Most generally when I reseed I use a pasture blend high in Orchard grass, with some clover and a hint of timothy.
The trick to making any money is not to spend any more than you have to on things you need. I'm not saying starve your animals by any means, but don't buy unnecassary things and you might see a little profit from time to time. I agree about getting with the county agent. Mine here has been no help to me, but it's worth a try.
As far as grass goes it's hard to beat orchard grass in my book. Lots of folks here have fescue. I am not real fond of it. There are lots of good grasses out there. Someone in your area can tell you what works best in your parts. Most generally when I reseed I use a pasture blend high in Orchard grass, with some clover and a hint of timothy.
texasjohn
Super Member
Hmm... now we're getting real info to PLUMBOY.
My serious recommendation, assuming you want to run 4 cows or so, is to get ex FFA/4H show cows. They will be gentle, can be led around, you can put your hands on them, they can be worked with a few ropes and a couple of gates made into a squeeze chute. Getting a 1200 lb animal to do what you want it to do is an art. Over time, you will learn how and where to stand, how to look at them and how to move to get them to do your bidding. Get 3-in-one's... she's gentle, she's bred, you know if the calf is a heifer or bull and it will be gentle because the mother is, and you won't need a bull for a good while. You'll have a calf to sell or eat in a few months.
The temptation is to get heifers... they are cheaper and cuter. There's a reason. It's a long time to payday. They hit the ground, take a year to grow up. Ideally, they are bred at 15 months and calve at 24 months. Then, that calf will be available for sale in say 6-10 months more. That's a long time to payday. AND, the risks are: slow breeding, calving problems, extra feed to both grow out that teenage heifer while she loses her baby teeth AND tries to grow a calf in her belly, she may have calving problems or not mother up, she may have a poor bag/mastitis, she may be slow to breed back . While the above can happen to any cow, it is significantly more lilely in a 1st calf heifer... thus the 3-in-one recommendation.
You can try AI but you gotta know it's tricky. You need to know when the cow is in standing heat and AI right then!! And at best you could expect a 50% pregancy rate, given the best of ranch conditions and technical skill. Another idea is to take the animals (you do have trailers, loading chute, pickup, etc, don't you) to a stud service, leave them for a couple of weeks to a month and a half depending on how their cycles hit.
You mention alfalfa and clover. Under some conditions these can cause bloat in cattle... they swell up and die because they can't breathe. You must learn about this and how to avoid it. It happens quickly, just an hour or so... so you must know what to do yourself (stick a hollow tube in the stomach to let out the gas) when/if this happens. The vet is likely to be too late.
Nobody has mentioned breed yet. My comments are likely to start a firestorm because it's a religious discussion. I believe the following:
1) select animals and a breed that is adapted to your area. Just because somebody is raising them there doesn't mean they are adapted.
2) I'd stay with one breed, not mixed cattle, it makes breeding bull selection easier unless you just don't care and simply want cows to be pregnant.. and, the best cow is a bred cow!
3) There is very significant variation within each breed regarding any measurable characteristic.
4) I raise BEEFMASTERS because they have been selected for six essential attributes that make money for cattlemen for many years and they are functionally adapted to my area. Color doesn't matter, you don't eat the hide. Each essential is very important and can't be ignored/avoided as a selection criteria... for any breed in my opinion. I list the essentials below, prioritized for your situation, PLUMBOY:
DISPOSITION
FERTILITY
WEIGHT
MILKING ABILITY
HARDINESS
CONFORMATION
More information is available at the BBU site: Beefmaster Breeders United :: Page Manager
Kentucky breeders are listed at: SEBBA - Southeastern Beefmaster Breeders Association
Regardless of breed, I think you should find somebody in your area you trust who will sell you cattle you can see on their place before purchase and observe their behavior. That cowman will want to make you happy and not sell you a problem animal. Comment, if you just buy animals at an auction that you don't know, they are very likely to be problem animals in some way and you will get some lessions in the cow business finding out what they are.
Remembering that each breed has significant variability, I think your most important characteristic when selecting a bull is BIRTH WEIGHT of his offspring. With just a few cows you really don't want to invest in a calf puller, chains, OB lube, shoulder length plastic gloves, or a vet bill.
Now, my biases regarding the breeds you mention:
Charloais: worry a lot about birth weight, this has been a very difficult problem in the breed. Also, late maturity can give 1st calf more toward 36 months of age rather than 24.
Angus: Have a reputation of having small calves, BUT, I have heard many neighbors who selected an Angus bull thinking this would be true and they were pulling 100-120lb calves out of their cows. (a good calf birth weight, my opinion in your situation would be 65 to 80 pounds)
Limousin: I have very little experience with them. Check out the essentials I mentioned but give MAJOR emphasis to good disposition.... I have a feeling that some Limousin are jumpy.
Bottom line, for you, nothing matters except GENTLE CATTLE YOU CAN HANDLE IN YOUR PENS/FENCES. That's all.. not breed, not conformation, nothing. If you can't safely and quickly handle them to load them to AI, or to sell, then they are useless to you.
My serious recommendation, assuming you want to run 4 cows or so, is to get ex FFA/4H show cows. They will be gentle, can be led around, you can put your hands on them, they can be worked with a few ropes and a couple of gates made into a squeeze chute. Getting a 1200 lb animal to do what you want it to do is an art. Over time, you will learn how and where to stand, how to look at them and how to move to get them to do your bidding. Get 3-in-one's... she's gentle, she's bred, you know if the calf is a heifer or bull and it will be gentle because the mother is, and you won't need a bull for a good while. You'll have a calf to sell or eat in a few months.
The temptation is to get heifers... they are cheaper and cuter. There's a reason. It's a long time to payday. They hit the ground, take a year to grow up. Ideally, they are bred at 15 months and calve at 24 months. Then, that calf will be available for sale in say 6-10 months more. That's a long time to payday. AND, the risks are: slow breeding, calving problems, extra feed to both grow out that teenage heifer while she loses her baby teeth AND tries to grow a calf in her belly, she may have calving problems or not mother up, she may have a poor bag/mastitis, she may be slow to breed back . While the above can happen to any cow, it is significantly more lilely in a 1st calf heifer... thus the 3-in-one recommendation.
You can try AI but you gotta know it's tricky. You need to know when the cow is in standing heat and AI right then!! And at best you could expect a 50% pregancy rate, given the best of ranch conditions and technical skill. Another idea is to take the animals (you do have trailers, loading chute, pickup, etc, don't you) to a stud service, leave them for a couple of weeks to a month and a half depending on how their cycles hit.
You mention alfalfa and clover. Under some conditions these can cause bloat in cattle... they swell up and die because they can't breathe. You must learn about this and how to avoid it. It happens quickly, just an hour or so... so you must know what to do yourself (stick a hollow tube in the stomach to let out the gas) when/if this happens. The vet is likely to be too late.
Nobody has mentioned breed yet. My comments are likely to start a firestorm because it's a religious discussion. I believe the following:
1) select animals and a breed that is adapted to your area. Just because somebody is raising them there doesn't mean they are adapted.
2) I'd stay with one breed, not mixed cattle, it makes breeding bull selection easier unless you just don't care and simply want cows to be pregnant.. and, the best cow is a bred cow!
3) There is very significant variation within each breed regarding any measurable characteristic.
4) I raise BEEFMASTERS because they have been selected for six essential attributes that make money for cattlemen for many years and they are functionally adapted to my area. Color doesn't matter, you don't eat the hide. Each essential is very important and can't be ignored/avoided as a selection criteria... for any breed in my opinion. I list the essentials below, prioritized for your situation, PLUMBOY:
DISPOSITION
FERTILITY
WEIGHT
MILKING ABILITY
HARDINESS
CONFORMATION
More information is available at the BBU site: Beefmaster Breeders United :: Page Manager
Kentucky breeders are listed at: SEBBA - Southeastern Beefmaster Breeders Association
Regardless of breed, I think you should find somebody in your area you trust who will sell you cattle you can see on their place before purchase and observe their behavior. That cowman will want to make you happy and not sell you a problem animal. Comment, if you just buy animals at an auction that you don't know, they are very likely to be problem animals in some way and you will get some lessions in the cow business finding out what they are.
Remembering that each breed has significant variability, I think your most important characteristic when selecting a bull is BIRTH WEIGHT of his offspring. With just a few cows you really don't want to invest in a calf puller, chains, OB lube, shoulder length plastic gloves, or a vet bill.
Now, my biases regarding the breeds you mention:
Charloais: worry a lot about birth weight, this has been a very difficult problem in the breed. Also, late maturity can give 1st calf more toward 36 months of age rather than 24.
Angus: Have a reputation of having small calves, BUT, I have heard many neighbors who selected an Angus bull thinking this would be true and they were pulling 100-120lb calves out of their cows. (a good calf birth weight, my opinion in your situation would be 65 to 80 pounds)
Limousin: I have very little experience with them. Check out the essentials I mentioned but give MAJOR emphasis to good disposition.... I have a feeling that some Limousin are jumpy.
Bottom line, for you, nothing matters except GENTLE CATTLE YOU CAN HANDLE IN YOUR PENS/FENCES. That's all.. not breed, not conformation, nothing. If you can't safely and quickly handle them to load them to AI, or to sell, then they are useless to you.
jwcinpk
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There's always the option of buying bull calf culls from local dairy farmer and raising them on a bottle. We had pretty good success with that until the price got so high around here. Know any dairy farmers locally.
Texas John has a lot of good points. It's a gamble.
Texas John has a lot of good points. It's a gamble.
Wow John thanks for opening up.And thanks everybody, I have become an info junky.Situation as of now is I have the fencing starting for 14 acres with one Pond plus I'm putting in water.BUT,this 14 acres is going to house the 5 calves I'll be buying soon.We'll raise them and learn each other.Slowly building up.I have 60 acres I can fence off and run cattle and the numbers are are coming in at about 2 mom/calf per 2-3 acres here.The rest is in hay.I like the ideal of running one breed and enjoy learning about them.Will look into beefmasters.The charolais they tell me are a one owner type cow and take off when other people come around.But my ajoining neighbor runs a couple hundred and are such good looking animals.If I got them he may be available for questions and that would be priceless.
The alfalfa and clover will be hay only..is this still a bloat potential or is it mainly just lush green plants?
JW and rob with ya on the tax man,and he is not fond of cutting breaks unless you directly feed people.So a hay only operation has taken a nose dive.And slowly, eachday, I am STARTING to realise that MY profits and benefits from all this ...work...is that my 13 year old son and his kid(s) are the ones who will benefit and profit from this,and maybe they'll let me hang out here instaed of throwing me in a old folks home...lol..cause in 4 years of owning this place I aint put a dent..a nano dent in my equipment cost let alone the farm payment.
The alfalfa and clover will be hay only..is this still a bloat potential or is it mainly just lush green plants?
JW and rob with ya on the tax man,and he is not fond of cutting breaks unless you directly feed people.So a hay only operation has taken a nose dive.And slowly, eachday, I am STARTING to realise that MY profits and benefits from all this ...work...is that my 13 year old son and his kid(s) are the ones who will benefit and profit from this,and maybe they'll let me hang out here instaed of throwing me in a old folks home...lol..cause in 4 years of owning this place I aint put a dent..a nano dent in my equipment cost let alone the farm payment.
jwcinpk said:
Actually I do.That could be a way to see something while I'm growing momas up.Thanks.
And that brings up another question,is banding a good ideal?Does that effect gains?And how many 'good' years do you see from moms,how many calves do they give you on average?
Quote "The alfalfa and clover will be hay only..is this still a bloat potential or is it mainly just lush green plants?"
I think the Alfalfa as hay will also be a problem for the cows. It is a great source of protein but the cows will bloat from the high nitrogen content regardless of green or not.
For the bulls, several guys I know just buy them at auction, have the vet at the auction garrantee they can reproduce, then just keep them until they cow are pregnant and sell them again. The cow will go into heat every 28 days or so. One bull can support up to 33 cows.
I think the Alfalfa as hay will also be a problem for the cows. It is a great source of protein but the cows will bloat from the high nitrogen content regardless of green or not.
For the bulls, several guys I know just buy them at auction, have the vet at the auction garrantee they can reproduce, then just keep them until they cow are pregnant and sell them again. The cow will go into heat every 28 days or so. One bull can support up to 33 cows.
redlevel
Gold Member
plumboy said:
Plumboy, somebody, I think maybe Farmswithjunk, has in his signature line that some people have to pee on the fence. Most of us who have gone into the cattle business have peed on the electric fence more than once. There is also an old saying about taking a fool's advice. Let this fool give you some advice.
Why would you want to raise your mama cows up from calves? You are just adding about a year to the wait for any returns, assuming you would buy six month old calves. Then, you are going to have all the problems associated with first calf heifers. Whoever advised you to start with cow/calf pairs gave good advice. You know the cow is fertile, and has raised at least one calf. You should be able to sell a calf in a few months to regain some of your expense, and you have a bred mama ready to drop another calf in just six or seven months. If you buy cow/calf pairs, with 3-4 month old calves, and assuming the cows have been exposed to a bull, more than likely the cow is bred back, and you have a three-in-one.
If you are raising a commercial herd, that is calves for the slaughter market, you need cross-bred mamas. You will get what geneticists call hybrid vigor. You can and should use pure-bred bulls to pass on desired genetic traits, such as low birth weight and high weaning weight. Of course, if you want a pure-bred herd, that is another story.
I don't know much about forages in your part of the country, but here in GA, "2 mom/calf per 2-3 acres" isn't realistic unless you have some irrigated pasture and you fertilize accordingly. It might be different in Kentucky, but if you try to run a cow/calf pair on an acre to an acre and a half, you are going to eventually get caught way short of grazing. A late frost in the spring, an early frost in the fall, or a summer drought will send you to the feed store. I would guess that you can get by with a pair to an acre and a half about two years out of five on good, highly fertilized coastal bermuda on dry land. One year out five you will have to buy at least some supplemental feed, and one or two years out of five, it will make you cry. You can always turn the cows onto the hay fields in late June or July, but what will you do for winter feed then? As I said, maybe I don't know what I am talking about for your area, but that is how it is here. Remember, the most expensive part of a cow/calf operation is taking that mama cow through the winter.
I sold out my herd back in May. It turned out to be a very smart move, because I got a good price, and we had a terrible drought. I have about 80 acres of coastal bermuda, and I don't believe I could have carried 20 cows without severe weight loss. A member of my church heard I was selling out, and asked if he could buy a few head to start a small herd. I told him sure, to just go to the pasture and make his picks, and then we would agree on a price. He bought three pairs and two bred cows. He got to watch them in the pasture for a couple of weeks. I got probably $100 more for the pairs and maybe $50 - $75 more for the cows, and he got to cherry pick the herd. If you could find a situation like that, you would be way ahead.
Whatever you decide, good luck. And be careful around that electric fence.