Cattle

[Dadnatron]

If you are just interested in ruining you ground... turn out a bunch of cows to continuously graze your property. They will wreck your grass and water without any input from you at all.

 

[Dadnatron]

I'd like to hear more about breeding for twins,especially foundation animals. In my years with beef cows,dropping twins earned a one way ticket to auction unless it was one of the dairy cows kept around to nurse orphans. It sound's counterintuitive,but I've never met a cow man that celebrated twin beef calves so it come's as surprise that ranchers breed specifically with twins in mind.

This is one of the worst bits of advice you can imagine for cattle. I壇 immediately cull any twin bearing cow. They can稚 produce the milk required for two... you have a much higher chance of losing both calves and cow during birth and gestation, they WILL BE smaller due to stunting both during gestation and after birth due to lack of milk.

If you want work... think this way. This is a city slicker mentality and will burn you quickly. I知 not trying to offend, but my goodness, this is horrible advice.

If you want to actually make money, choose medium to smaller framed cows. Choose your bulls for ease of birth rather than huge calves. Make sure ALL cows have good udders and produce good calves without help. If help is required to get a calf to market in good shape, send the cow along with it. You don稚 want her. Calves in late spring early summer, when there is lots of grass and it痴 easy on the calves. People have done things backwards for so long that it is like living on a flat earth. We 奏hink we know, therefore we continue to do the same things.

There is a LOT of research and new information on raising cows. If you want to actually do it well and with a minimum of fuss and input, it takes time in education and a willingness to be brutal in your culling methods. But, if you treat it like a business rather than 斗ike everyone else you can do well. My cousin grew up on the same ranch I did. He stayed in cattle. He was going broke about 10years ago, when I began thinking about getting back into it. I知 an MD, so I tend to research things a lot. As I did so, I learned so much about what we were doing wrong my whole life.

I finally talked him into changing how he thought about cattle and he took the plunge. He sold all his big framed stock. He had been heavy into Charolais and Limousine because they had huge calves. He was losing calves during calving season at about 3-4% a year. He had cows who were dry, he had cows who were vet problems, wild assed man cows, etc etc. Because that was what we always had with Grandpa.

He bought small framed Angus and South Pols. He broke up the 400ac into 3-4 acre parcels via movable electric fence. He built a movable water trough and made other access to water with a new pond. He ended up taking about 3-4 years to get a herd which worked on his place, but now he runs around 200 cow/calf pairs moving them once a day to a new pasture. His vet bills are almost nonexistent. He feeds hay only about 20-30 days a year in SW Colorado. He checks over his cows on a horse, once a day, simply because it痴 what we always did, but does it when he moves fence. If he wants to go somewhere for a few days, he sets up his paddocks with time release 組ates which allows the cows to move to a new pasture on there own each day.

He has been well into the black for the last 4 years. And he says it takes 1/2 the work he was doing continuously grazing and going broke.

You can稚 make money raising cattle 奏he old way? But you can if you learn a better way.

High intensity grazing, rotational grazing, small framed cows, calves in late spring, cull ruthlessly, and teach your cows rather than drive them.

 

[Dadnatron]

As an addition to the above... if you are doing cow/calf operation. There are a few things that will give you the best opportunity to be in the black.

1. Any cow not pregnant is a loss for a year... cull her. She has roughly 10 total years of calves possible. Usually around 8 in reality on average. If she can’t get pregnant, give birth without help to a healthy calf, and raise that calf to weaning and it makes it to the sale... she has immediately cost you at least 10% of her TOTAL value. GET RID OF HER FOR ANY OF THE ABOVE REASONS.

2. If a calf doesn’t make it to the sale ring in healthy condition, you are losing profit. This is the main tenet which people overlook. It is THE MOST important aspect of everything you do. If you have 10 cows you have 10 opportunities to get a calf to market.
A. If you have a dry cow, you’ve lost 10% of your potential profit and if you keep the cow for next year, you are feeding that cow without potential for profit, thereby reducing your profit even more. Every bale, vaccination, minerals, diesel for transport, etc she takes from you cuts away at the profit from the other 9 calves.
B. In order to maximize return, you want the biggest calves possible! So you calve early to get the longest growth time. WRONG! You want the most lbs/ acre available at the sale.PERIOD! Large frame cows eat much more than smaller frame cows. Get a 800ib calf to market means you likely had a 1400lb cow doing it. Charolais run like this. But let’s look at it carefully. Let’s say you have 20ac, enough for 10 large frame cow/calf pairs. This 20ac keeps them healthy so they don’t need any additional feed other than minerals. If everything is perfect, you can bring 10 Charolais calves to market at 800lbs in the fall. That is 8000 on the hoof lbs at market. We know you lose about 50% with slaughter so you produce 4000lbs dressed weight.

Now, if you lose 1 calf because 18% calving difficulty with Charolais or because you calved in an early March blizzard. Most calves are lost due to calving problems. Large frame cows have the most problem so they have the highest rate of calf death. On average only 70% or so of available cows You have only 2800 lbs. that is if everything else goes right.

Let’s look at South Polls calving in late April/early May. Calf weight is 650lbs but you can run 15cows on the same acreage because they eat much less than a large frame cow. They also have only 4% birth difficulty and since you are calving in warm spring grass, you are unlikely to have any losses, but let’s say you lose 2 for various reasons which would be a lot for South Poll but still. 13 calves at 650lbs gives 8450 hoof lbs. dressed out at 4225lbs. Each calf weighs only 80% of your big beautiful Charolais calves, because of breed and fewer months lived, but you have more of them, much less stress because of calving time, easier birth because of breed, cows breed back at higher rate because of breeding at optimal body condition because of grass available, etc.

Let’s look at it like corn. If you plant corn, do you want the biggest ears per plant or do you want the most corn per acre?

 

[aczlan]

Smaller cows also can't push as hard on gates and other stuff in the barn as larger cows can.
We specifically rented the smallest bull that the guy had available because we wanted smaller calves.

Aaron Z

 

[goeduck]

Smaller cows also can't push as hard on gates and other stuff in the barn as larger cows can.
We specifically rented the smallest bull that the guy had available because we wanted smaller calves.

Aaron Z

Small bulls do not always throw small calves. Good chance they will however. We call bulls that throw small calves heifer bulls and use them on the replacement heifers. The good ones throw small yet grow big.

 

[aczlan]

Small bulls do not always throw small calves. Good chance they will however. We call bulls that throw small calves heifer bulls and use them on the replacement heifers. The good ones throw small yet grow big.

He was still a little larger than the cows, but he was 3/4 the size of some of their larger bulls.

Aaron Z

 

[two_bit_score]

Maternal and paternal calving ease is an important factor in selection of breeds and cross. Maternal instinct and heterosis are also two factors for consideration.

Jerseys and Holsteins are not beef cattle.

 

[aczlan]

Maternal and paternal calving ease is an important factor in selection of breeds and cross. Maternal instinct and heterosis are also two factors for consideration.

Jerseys and Holsteins are not beef cattle.

IIRC, they said that all their bulls were calve ease bulls. The cows did well with their first calves this spring, hopefully they do as well with their 2nd ones this spring.

Aaron Z

 

[two_bit_score]

When I was at home we mostly had Hereford bulls. Now it seems to pay better if it’s Angus.

 

[two_bit_score]

IIRC, they said that all their bulls were calve ease bulls. The cows did well with their first calves this spring, hopefully they do as well with their 2nd ones this spring.

Aaron Z

What are you doing with the calves?

 

[goeduck]

We have 4 early calves, the only thing that makes sense is a juvenile bull that must have been able to jump high and quickly get it done. :confused3:

 

[aczlan]

What are you doing with the calves?

The plan is to raise the three calves (all steers) to ~18 months (spring of the year that they are born to the fall of the year after) and then sell two of them by the 1/2 or 1/4 for freezer beef (with one for family).
We have enough friends who are interested that they should go fairly quickly.

Aaron Z

 

[two_bit_score]

The plan is to raise the three calves (all steers) to ~18 months (spring of the year that they are born to the fall of the year after) and then sell two of them by the 1/2 or 1/4 for freezer beef (with one for family).
We have enough friends who are interested that they should go fairly quickly.

Aaron Z

Sounds like a good plan. Was breed a big factor?

 

[aczlan]

Sounds like a good plan. Was breed a big factor?

We wanted a beef breed (we raised a Holstein a few years back and didn't like the resulting meat).
The cows are a Hereford/Angus cross (black with a white face), the bull the first year was a black Angus (IIRC) and the calves ended up black with a few small white marks. The bull last year was a red Angus.

Aaron Z

 

[two_bit_score]

We wanted a beef breed (we raised a Holstein a few years back and didn't like the resulting meat).
The cows are a Hereford/Angus cross (black with a white face), the bull the first year was a black Angus (IIRC) and the calves ended up black with a few small white marks. The bull last year was a red Angus.

Aaron Z

Black baldies is what they are called down here. They were more popular until the solid black started to bring more at commercial auctions and a lot of people just went that way. Good combination - Angus and Herford.

Some of my friends kids are showing British Whites. Interesting cattle. Very gentle. They are said to have a propensity for twins but they are also said to produce sufficient milk.


TBS

 

[aczlan]

Black baldies is what they are called down here. They were more popular until the solid black started to bring more at commercial auctions and a lot of people just went that way. Good combination - Angus and Herford.

That is what my father in law calls them. We like them, they have been fairly gentle and good to work with.
As for what they bring at auction, we aren't planning on sending any to auction, so that isn't a priority for us.

Aaron Z

 

[beowulf]

When I was at home we mostly had Hereford bulls. Now it seems to pay better if it痴 Angus.

That is what I was told by the local sale yard owner/auctioneer - he said these days everyone wants black.

 

[aczlan]

That is what I was told by the local sale yard owner/auctioneer - he said these days everyone wants black.

That is what the guy we rented the bull from said as well. He also said that pure black, black/white, red and red/white cows taste the same on the inside

Aaron Z

 

[Dadnatron]

That is what I was told by the local sale yard owner/auctioneer - he said these days everyone wants black.

That is STRICTLY due to the American Angus Association's efforts since 1978 when they began the Marketing ploy of 'Certified Angus Beef'. They got together and pushed the 'thought' that Angus beef was the 'premium beef'. Now, you can't go into a restaurant without seeing 'Angus steaks' on the menu. It really has been one of the best STEALTH marketing campaigns with one of the biggest outcomes of which I know.

The funny thing is... you basically only have to have 51% Angus... to obtain the certification. Although, I think they have instituted some carcass characteristics which need to be met now. Which is funny, because a lot of those characteristics are likely to change, with the changing thought of how we eat. Specifically, smaller steak sizes are becoming much more popular. And I think one of the required characteristics for 'Angus' was to have a relatively large 'Ribeye'.

 

[two_bit_score]

That is what I was told by the local sale yard owner/auctioneer - he said these days everyone wants black.

That is what the guy we rented the bull from said as well. He also said that pure black, black/white, red and red/white cows taste the same on the inside

Aaron Z

The Angus breeders association did an excellent PR campaign with their “100% Angus Beef” campaign.