Dealer Central Ohio Bobcat Dealer

[billiardbrawler]

Hi Brian,

Well, not sure where to start. I guess I'll start with specs. Specs vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and within a manufacturer. As good as Bobcat is and anybody for that matter, you can find two different figures on most specs related to hydraulic lift capacities, breakout forces, hydraulic horsepower ect...

One of the reasons for the discrepencies (sp?) is that when machines are being developed and engineered most manufacturers start with theoretical statistics. Such as, a cylinder of x diameter with a stroke of y @ 3200psi x 12 gpm should = X.

Some manufacturers don't even physically measure those calculations to see if they are correct. Hence you have a estimated #. Later, after development, our machines get physically measured by SAE standards. ( 500 mm from pin) for breakout for example. You may end up with two different figures. Society of automotive engineers SAE doesn't provide criteria measuring all the pressures and capacities, this leaves room for manufactures to manipulate the numbers.

There also are some tricks that some manufacturers use to askew the numbers. An example would be Kubota's bucket breakout on their excavators. They have 2 pin locations, one for loading a truck and one for digging. Guess what, they look great on paper, but I don't know anyone who is going to get out, and hammer out 2 pins to switch the positions after every dig cycle.

They also rate their forces at a "place and time" through the lift cycle. So at this spot right here ( 142"s boom out, crowd at 42 degrees, bucket at 30 degrees) we get "x" amount of force...so that's what they publish. Bobcat, you will find, uses a average of the digging cycle...it's a more accurate, real world rating.

Horse power is another one. For decades, Bobcat listed horsepower based on " net", where as everyone else used gross. The competition looked stronger because it was not apples to apples. Net horsepower is based on a engine laden with a muffler, alternator ect.....a truer rating---not a bare engine sitting on a dyno.

With todays web capabilities so many people shop Specs to narrow down what their even going to look at. I have great products to sell, that either compete or more than not, out perform the competition. But I may not even get a sniff because a guy didn't like spec "y".

Let me tell ALL OF YOU!......DON'T SHOP SPECS!!! Go to your dealer and demo the units.
The proof is in the pudding.

Our skid loaders spin our hydraulic and hydrostatic pumps side ways with a pulley.....guess what? Our 773 bobcat at 46 horse had more hydraulic horsepower, more axle torque, and would out lift a 56 horsepower case 1845!

DON'T SHOP SPECS.

Hey Brian,

How about I bring a tractor out and we lift your pallet. Your loader is probably going to be in late next week but we can do it with another one I have. I'm not saying it's going to do it, but let's try it, it's the only way to know for sure.

I hope I haven't come across confrontational, for that's not my intent, if I accomplish anything with this post I hope it is to encourage anyone looking to purchase anything......go try it....don't "bench race".

 

[wallace]

Hi Brian,

I have got some answers for you-strait from Bobcat.

Loader breakout by sae standards are derived by measuring 500 mm from the bucket pin. (basically a 24" load center). The actual breakout on the 7tl loader is 1,904 lbs.

The 111 changes - 120 changes must be taken with a grain of salt. (don't shoot the messenger).

I first must acknowledge 2 points that I was mis- informed on. The axles and the frame are the same as the kioti.

Alot of the changes are very minor, for instance, Bobcat evaluated their factory and made many changes to the way the tractor is produced, both production wise and material/feature wise.

A couple examples are as follows:

Our loader is a heavier loader allowing for more lift capacity and longer life.
You may want to revisit your specs on your loader and Kiotis loader.
Our seat flips forward so your bum doesn't get wet when you leave the tractor in the rain.
Ours is sloped back and we never had a problem with water. Our seat belt is mounted with the seat itself, not on the frame, this allows the seat belt to move with the bounce of the terrain......mounted to the frame would pinch you.
Kioti belts ls mounted to the seat also.
We use a spark arrest muffler.
We use a 2 stage air cleaner as opposed to a single stage.
On what models? and Can you post a picture of one on one of the small hp tractors?
We implemented tie downs that didn't exist before.
Like to see a picture of these also.
We engineered and produce a mid mount mower, and rear and soon front snow blower for the tractor.
My hats off to you guys for that I never seen one mow but I will give credit where credit is due.

ect...

The biggest change is the Bobcat dealer network that exists. We have over 600 dealers across the us. We have over 50 yrs experience in the compact Equipment market and I 've been with Bobcat since 1988.
Just because you have 600 plus dealers does not mean all of them will sell the tractor line. Nor will they have parts in stock, not saying they won't fix or service them but you may no be able to walk in and get a filter kit off the shelf. Right or wrong?
I apologize once again for the mis information on the frame and axles, but I promise, as your salesman to take care of you. I may not have all the answers but I'll sure try to get them for you.

thanks, steve

Rick Wallace

 

[billiardbrawler]

Hi Rick,

I see no good coming from us debating when and what improvements got implemented on machines or the scope of them. I will not fuel this thread. I innocently wanted to answer some questions that my customer had and I felt obligated to do so. Hind sight, I should of chosen a private venue.


You guys build a great machine. If you didn't Bobcat wouldn't of chose you. By the content of your posts and those customers that you have it is evident that you enjoy a great reputation. I respect that very much.

Have a great day and I hope you have a prosperous year.

 

[xLearJockey]

Steve,

First, *thanks* for taking the time to post your well thought out and complete replies - the information is invaluable not only to the OP but to the many "viewers".
Second, you are correct when you say that Rick certainly does enjoy a (well deserved, hard earned), excellent reputation on these boards.
While it's neither my place, nor my intention, to be an apologist or a fan-boy for him I will only say that, from my perspective I don't think it was his intent to be confrontational but rather to assist in ensuring that the best possible information is provided here.
That is NOT to say that your intentions are any different - if I were to substitute "Steve" for "Rick" in my previous statement it would be equally true.
Some questions/issues are black and white - seat belt either IS or IS NOT attached to seat e.g., others can be murky at best ("specs"), and still others where it comes down to "opinion" will never reach consensus.
All that said, I will take issue with one comment you made - "Hind sight, I should of chosen a private venue."
Please, please, DON'T!!!
Speaking as a long time TBN viewer, brand "newbie" poster, and less than 24 hour "owner" of a CT225, I can't impress upon you enough how valuable and how much appreciated posts like your original and Rick's reply are to those of us seeking information upon which to base our decisions.
While I completely agree with, and respect, your unwillingness to "fuel" under normal chat room/forum circumstances, I don't see this situation as that at all.
Even a "spirited" debate, between two knowledgeable partisans provides tremendous insight for those of us thirsting for information.
Absolutely keep it civil and refuse to feed the "trolls" when they appear but please don't "take it private" and deny the forum the benefit of your insight.
Thanks for listening and sorry for the wordiness.

 

[billiardbrawler]

well lear jockey,


That was very nice of you. It is challenging as a salesman posting here. Anyone, including Bobcat brass can be watching and scrutinizing every word that is written. Also being challenged in a public forum really isn't something I enjoy.

That being said, I do have to admit this has been bugging me for the last few days, so I did do some more home work and I believe I can put this whole debate to rest. ( Rick, correct me if I'm wrong ).

So, here is what has happened. About 5 years ago, Bobcat decided to get into the compact tractor market. They researched this to death. They chose Dae dong, whom happens to be the maker of Kioti.

Today, the Bobcat and Kioti are virtually identical. Very minor differences. The 120 changes that everyone reads about are from 5 years ago. As Bobcat worked with dae dong on changes, Kioti was a recipient of all the improvements as well. I come to find out, that, yes, we did use bigger axles and a heavier frame, but Kioti got it as well. We did go to a heavier loader, Dae dong didn't use rhino until we came on board and sourced it.

The different specs on the loaders, for instance, can be attributed to us comparing the "old 5 yr old" loader" to the new one. But that spec is mute now, we both use the same one.

Any more, in todays world, everyone builds a good tractor. I would suggest finding a dealer and manufacturer that treats you right and is comfortable to work with. I can tell you I've been with Bobcat since 1988. They and their dealers are a class act.

One more thing, if you don't mind I jump on a soap box for a minute, The cheapest is not always the least expensive. I say this, because I do see a lot of posts on "hammering" the dealers. I may take some heat for this, but, you may want to consider letting your dealer make a little money instead of hammering him. These profit margins are very skinny, there is not much there to hammer out anyhow. However, the customer that walks through that door that was pleasant to deal with will get far better service then the $120.00's he might of saved by beating us up. It's humane nature.

The tighter you hold your fist the less you can hold.

So this should clear up the confusion of when, how and what changes or differences exist. Once again, they're very much identical.

Oh, and Rick, we do have the new tie downs......I'm sure you'll get to see them, they'll be equipped on your next order!

thanks, steve

 

[Punk]

Hey Steve,

Just thought I'd ring in with a little applause of my own. I've had the problem of quoting from your book; but run into discrepencies, with other members, as to what's posted on the Web. I also mentioned that I thought you guys measured lifts, at different points than your competition. You must relize, though, that I'm a new member with very few posts. That tends to get you in trouble with other members, who are Gold, Silver, Brass, and even the dreaded Iron members.

You Bobcat dealers, and Kioti dealers, need to step in here; because most of the people, who are looking at your tactors, are the next generation of tractor buyers. That said; if you rest on your laurels, so to speak, you may lose those potential customers by the mighty pen - which blows in the wind.

Some members are sold on name alone. They won't look at the specs, and they don't look at the price. They only look at a name. They will also stick by their brand, regardless of facts, and they'll use anything on the web to back up their arguments.

If this next generation listens to someone, who only buys a tractor based on a name, then they're making a huge mistake. Regardless, of how they make that mistake, they will probably stay with that brand for the rest of their life. I truly believe this; because I see it all the time.

The ball's in your court, for the next generation of tractor buyers. People, like me, have no clout on this network. If you guys don't step up and defend your goal; then many of the newbies, as they like to call us, may fall for a name tag.

Keep us informed, and by all means - Keep it in the Open.

 

[billiardbrawler]

Well said Punk and thank you, I plan on reading, contributing and learning some myself. My actual expertise is in skid loaders, mini excavators, pool, fast cars and 20ish something barmaids...........

we won't be posting any pics on the latter.......

 

[Illini22]

I agree with punk except on loyalty. I have a b 7100 4x4 hst w/o a loader. The more I read about kioti and bobcat I'm 99% sure that will be my next tractor. And I really need a loader but don't want to spend 3000 or more for my b7100 even though all it did was pull a drag on a baseball infield. I think I would be better off selling or trading it in and getting a ck 25 or bobcat model with a loader already attatched. A bac khoe would be a dream but probably out of the question.

 

[Mrb94]

Well said Punk and thank you, I plan on reading, contributing and learning some myself. My actual expertise is in skid loaders, mini excavators, pool, fast cars and 20ish something barmaids...........

we won't be posting any pics on the latter.......

Steve,
I sure hope that I did not beat you up too much on my CT225 that you won't share your expertise on the 20ish barmaids with me...
Brian

 

[billiardbrawler]

You we're great to deal with Brian ( notice, I still have to kiss butt, I don't have all your money yet)!

Maybe we can play a race to 7 in nineball for some of those attachments?...you win, I'll buy them for you, I win, you pay double!

It won't be so bad, the barmaids will keep us well hydrated!