Anonymous Poster
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never till last year was lucky only cost about $600.00 at the ER Room, now use chaps and hard hat
Chainsaw users---tell the truth.....
- Thread starter DaRube
- Start date
- Views: 8222
Youare
Platinum Member
I think kickback is something you do and don't have control over. The action or cause of kickback is something you try to take your best percautions to avoid but it is not something you can totally eliminate.
As much as possible try to position yourself away from the line of rotation. The line of rotation is going to be in line with the bar of the saw. The pivot point of rotation is either going to be the rear handle of the saw or the top handle whichever one you are holding on to.
Never position yourself directly in-line with the bar of the saw.
This is not as difficult when cutting vertically, however when cutting horizontally such as when cutting brush you can not get out of the line of a kickback.
The best way to minimize the effect of a kickback is to maintain the proper grip on the handles of the saw. With whatever hand you hold the top handle of the saw with make sure you wrap your thumb around the handle.
A little example or test is to have someone hold a broom stick with their thumb not wrapped around it and give it a good hit away from the direction of grip. Now try it with the thumb wrapped around the broom stick. It is amasing the difference in the strength of the grip one way over the other.
Do not let go of the top handle while the saw is running for any reason. This hand is going to hold the saw from kicking back at you provided you maintian a good grip on the bottom handle also. Kickback can be deflected to the side with your top hand hold most of the time. Many of the newer saws have a break that is ativated by a kickback jolt, but a stopped chain hitting you in the face can still do considerable damage.
Don't ever let go of the sawthat is when people get into trouble. Never cut with the top quadrant of the saw bar. When making an upward cut with the top of the bar make sure the contact point is towards the middle of the bar as much as possible.
I know these things have been said many times, but they can't be said too much. A chainsaw is a wonderful tool and a nasty weapon which does not care if it cuts wood or you.
Randy
As much as possible try to position yourself away from the line of rotation. The line of rotation is going to be in line with the bar of the saw. The pivot point of rotation is either going to be the rear handle of the saw or the top handle whichever one you are holding on to.
Never position yourself directly in-line with the bar of the saw.
This is not as difficult when cutting vertically, however when cutting horizontally such as when cutting brush you can not get out of the line of a kickback.
The best way to minimize the effect of a kickback is to maintain the proper grip on the handles of the saw. With whatever hand you hold the top handle of the saw with make sure you wrap your thumb around the handle.
A little example or test is to have someone hold a broom stick with their thumb not wrapped around it and give it a good hit away from the direction of grip. Now try it with the thumb wrapped around the broom stick. It is amasing the difference in the strength of the grip one way over the other.
Do not let go of the top handle while the saw is running for any reason. This hand is going to hold the saw from kicking back at you provided you maintian a good grip on the bottom handle also. Kickback can be deflected to the side with your top hand hold most of the time. Many of the newer saws have a break that is ativated by a kickback jolt, but a stopped chain hitting you in the face can still do considerable damage.
Don't ever let go of the sawthat is when people get into trouble. Never cut with the top quadrant of the saw bar. When making an upward cut with the top of the bar make sure the contact point is towards the middle of the bar as much as possible.
I know these things have been said many times, but they can't be said too much. A chainsaw is a wonderful tool and a nasty weapon which does not care if it cuts wood or you.
Randy
gordon
Veteran Member
Randy great post you bring up some good points on grip.
Kickback is the uncontrollable movement of a chainsaw. Grip can help to stop the saw, sawing with your arm in a locked positon can also help. Low or anti kickback chain will help but not get rid of the condition. If you look at your bar from the side and look at the tip. Most bad kickbacks happen when you use the radius of the tip in the 12 o'clock to the 3 o'clock position. Think about it.
I guess a good question that needs to be put on the table is why? What is a main cause of kickback?
This is what causes most cuts to chain saw operators. Their is an “anti-kickback” chain available but it too will “kickback”, if you are not careful. This condition, “kickback”, occurs, basically, due to 1) the physics of the spinning chain around the tip of the bar, 2) putting the upper ¼ of the bar tip in a bind or pinched condition (boring with the bar tip or hitting another object such as a limb, sapling or tree), 3) the violent release of pressure from the object being cut (limb under pressure or springpole).
The ways to lessen the effects of the violent reaction are 1) use an “anti-kickback” chain, 2) complete concentration as to the position of the bar tip, 3) proper stance (feet apart with firm and secure footing, hand on handle bar, with thumb curled around it, other hand on pistol grip/trigger, position body so if “kickback does occur the chain saw will go over the shoulder. Never try cutting anything with just one hand on the chain saw. Never try to cut anything above shoulder height. Don't try and overreach and most importantly. Turn the saw OFF when you start feeling tired. Your reaction will be much slower when your tired.
Last but not least wear your safety equipment so if a kick back does happen you will be able to tell the story about it instead of bleeding to death is some forest or woods.
Gordon
Kickback is the uncontrollable movement of a chainsaw. Grip can help to stop the saw, sawing with your arm in a locked positon can also help. Low or anti kickback chain will help but not get rid of the condition. If you look at your bar from the side and look at the tip. Most bad kickbacks happen when you use the radius of the tip in the 12 o'clock to the 3 o'clock position. Think about it.
I guess a good question that needs to be put on the table is why? What is a main cause of kickback?
This is what causes most cuts to chain saw operators. Their is an “anti-kickback” chain available but it too will “kickback”, if you are not careful. This condition, “kickback”, occurs, basically, due to 1) the physics of the spinning chain around the tip of the bar, 2) putting the upper ¼ of the bar tip in a bind or pinched condition (boring with the bar tip or hitting another object such as a limb, sapling or tree), 3) the violent release of pressure from the object being cut (limb under pressure or springpole).
The ways to lessen the effects of the violent reaction are 1) use an “anti-kickback” chain, 2) complete concentration as to the position of the bar tip, 3) proper stance (feet apart with firm and secure footing, hand on handle bar, with thumb curled around it, other hand on pistol grip/trigger, position body so if “kickback does occur the chain saw will go over the shoulder. Never try cutting anything with just one hand on the chain saw. Never try to cut anything above shoulder height. Don't try and overreach and most importantly. Turn the saw OFF when you start feeling tired. Your reaction will be much slower when your tired.
Last but not least wear your safety equipment so if a kick back does happen you will be able to tell the story about it instead of bleeding to death is some forest or woods.
Gordon
dmccarty
Super Star Member
YouAre,
I aggree with everything you said except the stance issue.
I don't see how one can control the saw without it being help firmly.
And to me, the best stance is with the feet shoulder height wide or
more and with the saw held so that the bar is in the midline of the
body. This way I can really control the saw. If I had the saw so that
the bar was not in line with my body I don't think I would be able
to control the machine.
One reason I don't like to drop trees is having to cut with the saw
horizontal to the ground and I just don't feel like I have the control
I normally have.
I THINK the reason that kick back has not been a problem for me
is how I hold the saw. But I also want to be danged sure about
what I'm doing as well. So I'll listen to anybody's idea on this
subject...
Later...
Dan
I aggree with everything you said except the stance issue.
I don't see how one can control the saw without it being help firmly.
And to me, the best stance is with the feet shoulder height wide or
more and with the saw held so that the bar is in the midline of the
body. This way I can really control the saw. If I had the saw so that
the bar was not in line with my body I don't think I would be able
to control the machine.
One reason I don't like to drop trees is having to cut with the saw
horizontal to the ground and I just don't feel like I have the control
I normally have.
I THINK the reason that kick back has not been a problem for me
is how I hold the saw. But I also want to be danged sure about
what I'm doing as well. So I'll listen to anybody's idea on this
subject...
Later...
Dan
dmccarty
Super Star Member
Gordon,
Thanks for the info.
What you wrote matches what I see when I get kickback.
The manual says its a no no to saw above your head which pretty
much would put the saw at the 12 oclock position. I'll have to
pay more attention but I would think most of sawing is at the
3 to 5 oclock positions.
I use the yellow Stihl chains which is not antikick back. This
is one of the reasons for my questions. I just figured I would
be mangled and dead at this point because of kickback. But for
me its been a managable problem.
When I get kickback its almost always the tip being pinched
when the log settles and I'm trying to get the bar into the gap.
I'm at low throttle at that point which helps.
The one form of kickback that scares the poopy out of me is what
I call kickdown. If I have a log far enough off the ground I might
try to cut underneath the tree. I have had the tip get caught and
spun down. I have very little control when this happens so I try
not to do this in the first place and I ALWAYS try to keep my feet
out of the path of the chain/bar regardless of the cut.
Thanks for the info.
Dan McCarty
Thanks for the info.
What you wrote matches what I see when I get kickback.
The manual says its a no no to saw above your head which pretty
much would put the saw at the 12 oclock position. I'll have to
pay more attention but I would think most of sawing is at the
3 to 5 oclock positions.
I use the yellow Stihl chains which is not antikick back. This
is one of the reasons for my questions. I just figured I would
be mangled and dead at this point because of kickback. But for
me its been a managable problem.
When I get kickback its almost always the tip being pinched
when the log settles and I'm trying to get the bar into the gap.
I'm at low throttle at that point which helps.
The one form of kickback that scares the poopy out of me is what
I call kickdown. If I have a log far enough off the ground I might
try to cut underneath the tree. I have had the tip get caught and
spun down. I have very little control when this happens so I try
not to do this in the first place and I ALWAYS try to keep my feet
out of the path of the chain/bar regardless of the cut.
Thanks for the info.
Dan McCarty
Youare
Platinum Member
Gordon
Your points on the dynamics of kickback are right on. There is a danger zone on the top quadrant of the bar tip that is going to get you in the most trouble. The trouble is there are many times cutting with this portion of the bar will result in no negitive results. Then there is the one time when you do and the saw is out to get you.
I find that fatigue is the second most dangerous thing. Number one is over confidence or just plain taking for granted that I have done this 100 times before and it worked out alright. A person can become too comfortable with the saw and loose the respect it should be given.
There are not too many things that I enjoy more than chainsaw work. I wear more safety equipment now than I did before, because I want to be able to enjoy this for many more years to come. As I get older I find that my reactions are not as quick as they used to be and so it is imperative that I pay attention to every detail of what I do, not that I should't have before.
My concern is that thre are many casual operators of chainsaws that think all you have to do is start the saw pull the trigger and cut some wood. I shudder when I see people drop start chainsaws. Even when they are placed on the ground and stepped on many people do not activate the chain break to prevent the chain from turning. I always place the rear handle between my legs lock my left elbow and pull with my right arm. It is amasing how easy it is to start a saw this way.
The subject of safe felling practices and working with hung trees or branches is one that should be raised.
This weekend I removed a 13 inch diameter stem that broke away from a white maple, the tip was on the ground but the broken end, not attached any longer was still 12 feet off the ground. This branch fell from a tree into a playgound at the school where my wife teaches. Getting a truck into position to pullit free was not possible because the ground was too soft so it had to be carefully cut out. I had to continually check the tension on each branch as I trimmed them off, after removing most of the weight I could roll it off with a peavy.
You have to watch what you are doing all the time.
Randy
Your points on the dynamics of kickback are right on. There is a danger zone on the top quadrant of the bar tip that is going to get you in the most trouble. The trouble is there are many times cutting with this portion of the bar will result in no negitive results. Then there is the one time when you do and the saw is out to get you.
I find that fatigue is the second most dangerous thing. Number one is over confidence or just plain taking for granted that I have done this 100 times before and it worked out alright. A person can become too comfortable with the saw and loose the respect it should be given.
There are not too many things that I enjoy more than chainsaw work. I wear more safety equipment now than I did before, because I want to be able to enjoy this for many more years to come. As I get older I find that my reactions are not as quick as they used to be and so it is imperative that I pay attention to every detail of what I do, not that I should't have before.
My concern is that thre are many casual operators of chainsaws that think all you have to do is start the saw pull the trigger and cut some wood. I shudder when I see people drop start chainsaws. Even when they are placed on the ground and stepped on many people do not activate the chain break to prevent the chain from turning. I always place the rear handle between my legs lock my left elbow and pull with my right arm. It is amasing how easy it is to start a saw this way.
The subject of safe felling practices and working with hung trees or branches is one that should be raised.
This weekend I removed a 13 inch diameter stem that broke away from a white maple, the tip was on the ground but the broken end, not attached any longer was still 12 feet off the ground. This branch fell from a tree into a playgound at the school where my wife teaches. Getting a truck into position to pullit free was not possible because the ground was too soft so it had to be carefully cut out. I had to continually check the tension on each branch as I trimmed them off, after removing most of the weight I could roll it off with a peavy.
You have to watch what you are doing all the time.
Randy
Youare
Platinum Member
Dan
Most of the time when limbing the tree stem is on the right side of my body. The top handle of the saw is in my left hand which is crossed in front of my body, the trigger handle is in my right hand. This places the saw almost perpendicular to my body or off to the right side keeping me from being directly in front of the saw.
When limbing the branches on my side of the stem, the left side, I cut with the top of the bar, upward motion. The branches on the top of the stem are cut with the top of the bar, horizontal, the branches on the right side of the stem are cut with the underside of the bar, downward most of the time. This method allows me to stay most of the time out of the direct line of the bar.
Felling I make a 90 degree face cut. First, I make the top cut at about a 50 degree angle downward with the bottom of the bar to the proper depth. Second, the bottom face cut is make upward with the bottom of the bar at about a 40 degree angle to meet the top cut removing a 90 degree wedge. All these cuts are accomplished while I am positioned with the stem in front of me as I face the direction the tree is to fall I have my left knee on the ground and my right foot on the ground facing the hindge . This keeps the tree between me and the saw.
The reason for the 90 degree wedge is to allow the stem to remain attached to the stump through the hindge all the way to the ground. If you think about it a 45 degree face cut will close when the tree is only half way to the ground causing the hindge to break and now the stem is free to move backwards twist sideways, or whatever.
The back cut is made with the top of the bar into the tree from the same position as the face cut, except I am standing on both feet now. This positions my body in line with the hindge. If the stem was to split or barberchair I am not in the direction of that action, and there are other ways to prevent that event. I am also positioned in the path of retreat off to the side.
Are there times when I have to stand in a less than desirable position, certainly. Is it easier to stand directly in front of the saw, yes. But, after you train yourself to do things differently in a safer manner it becomes almost automatic.
Randy
Most of the time when limbing the tree stem is on the right side of my body. The top handle of the saw is in my left hand which is crossed in front of my body, the trigger handle is in my right hand. This places the saw almost perpendicular to my body or off to the right side keeping me from being directly in front of the saw.
When limbing the branches on my side of the stem, the left side, I cut with the top of the bar, upward motion. The branches on the top of the stem are cut with the top of the bar, horizontal, the branches on the right side of the stem are cut with the underside of the bar, downward most of the time. This method allows me to stay most of the time out of the direct line of the bar.
Felling I make a 90 degree face cut. First, I make the top cut at about a 50 degree angle downward with the bottom of the bar to the proper depth. Second, the bottom face cut is make upward with the bottom of the bar at about a 40 degree angle to meet the top cut removing a 90 degree wedge. All these cuts are accomplished while I am positioned with the stem in front of me as I face the direction the tree is to fall I have my left knee on the ground and my right foot on the ground facing the hindge . This keeps the tree between me and the saw.
The reason for the 90 degree wedge is to allow the stem to remain attached to the stump through the hindge all the way to the ground. If you think about it a 45 degree face cut will close when the tree is only half way to the ground causing the hindge to break and now the stem is free to move backwards twist sideways, or whatever.
The back cut is made with the top of the bar into the tree from the same position as the face cut, except I am standing on both feet now. This positions my body in line with the hindge. If the stem was to split or barberchair I am not in the direction of that action, and there are other ways to prevent that event. I am also positioned in the path of retreat off to the side.
Are there times when I have to stand in a less than desirable position, certainly. Is it easier to stand directly in front of the saw, yes. But, after you train yourself to do things differently in a safer manner it becomes almost automatic.
Randy
dcollie
Member
My own little horror story:
Last August I had a small 5" diameter tree that had bent over from a storm to take down. I almost grabbed the manual bow saw, but decided I was lazy and fetched up my Husquvarna Rancher instead. I left the chain saw chaps in the garage, after all, it was only ONE tree and a small one at that, right? Why bother to get the gear?
You know the rest of the story already I bet. The tree came down without a hitch (takes that Husky about 1.5 seconds to eat a 5"er) and on the through swing to finish, the tip of that 20" blade ever so lightly came across my bare kneecap. I felt the nick, just a kiss of the blade and was afraid to look down. Kind of stood there a few seconds and muttered to myself 'cause I knew for sure what I had just managed to do....and I know better. Sure enough, my sock and tennis shoe were rapidly filling with blood.
Spent the rest of the afternoon in the E.R., getting lots of stitches,a tetnus shot, getting admonished by the nurses and especially my wife (who knows I have the chaps). Took about two weeks to heal decently, and I was out of action from doing yard chores for most that time.
And I was lucky, it was the lightest of taps.....that blade is so sharp and so fast it doesn't take much to open you up like a piece of raw meat.
Chain saws are considered to be the most dangerous consumer equipment on the market that you can buy. I personally don't think you can ever have too much safety gear on when operating one, nor can you bypass that gear for even the smallest of jobs.
-Duane C.
"Experience is a Great Teacher"
Last August I had a small 5" diameter tree that had bent over from a storm to take down. I almost grabbed the manual bow saw, but decided I was lazy and fetched up my Husquvarna Rancher instead. I left the chain saw chaps in the garage, after all, it was only ONE tree and a small one at that, right? Why bother to get the gear?
You know the rest of the story already I bet. The tree came down without a hitch (takes that Husky about 1.5 seconds to eat a 5"er) and on the through swing to finish, the tip of that 20" blade ever so lightly came across my bare kneecap. I felt the nick, just a kiss of the blade and was afraid to look down. Kind of stood there a few seconds and muttered to myself 'cause I knew for sure what I had just managed to do....and I know better. Sure enough, my sock and tennis shoe were rapidly filling with blood.
Spent the rest of the afternoon in the E.R., getting lots of stitches,a tetnus shot, getting admonished by the nurses and especially my wife (who knows I have the chaps). Took about two weeks to heal decently, and I was out of action from doing yard chores for most that time.
And I was lucky, it was the lightest of taps.....that blade is so sharp and so fast it doesn't take much to open you up like a piece of raw meat.
Chain saws are considered to be the most dangerous consumer equipment on the market that you can buy. I personally don't think you can ever have too much safety gear on when operating one, nor can you bypass that gear for even the smallest of jobs.
-Duane C.
"Experience is a Great Teacher"
BillG_in_TX
Veteran Member
OK guys. Between your stories and my wife's nightmares, I just ordered a pair of chaps ($40) and a helmet/visor/ear muff unit ($38) from <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.baileys-online.com/>Bailey's</A>. Of course, that rip in my 501 levis from dropping my Stihl on my leg while it was stihl running/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif, got my attention also. No blood, but a serious wake-up call.
Anonymous Poster
Epic Contributor
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 29,678
I won't go into definitions, Dan, except to say, kickback is ANY fast reaction, by the saw bar, to an introduced foreign object, be that a branch or a body part.
In other words.. even IF you controlled it, it is kickback.
I can put my 066 Stihl into a large branch on a white oak and CAUSE instant kickback, and control it with my thumb wrapped around the grab handle, and my wrist sets the chain brake instantly. Would I, if it happened without my knowledge, have as much control? No, probably not, since I am not expecting it.. but thats why I keep my head OVER to the left of the bar by at least a good foot, since I would rather the chain hit my shoulder than my head.
The official definition is 'uncontrollable' meaning you aren't expecting it, nor are you always "set" for it to happen. Yes, fatigue is an enormous factor, as is simple safety ignorance. I have watches sawyers/fallers on fires, walk around a tree just felled, limbing it, in slick mud from a helicopter water bucket, revving their saw up to 10,000 rpm as they move.. tell me THAT'S safe! Every single person that saws, needs to RTFM, and watch videos, and learn from a person with the knowledge. I was fortunate to learn from a man named Dent, in California.. one of the best fallers ever known.. and the author of a book "Professional Timber Falling, A Procedural Approach" by D. Douglas Dent, published by the author, phone 541-383-8944 Another book is "Fallers' and Buckers' Handbook" by the Workers Compensation Board of British Columbia, phone (604) 273-2266 Note the publisher of the latter.. Workers Comp. of BC.
Point being, Dan, is that not only do you need to be not fatigued, but rather, hyperaware, especially in situations like you mention, root wads from a blowdown, that you KNOW are gonna be more dangerous than normal.
Two rules I made for myself.. Be alert and be MORE alert... and the other; Watch UP while falling, watch DOWN while bucking and limbing, and watch EVERYWHERE while the saw is running.
Yeah, I know.. lotsa watching... but, I don't have a single scratch other than my own stupidity in checking the sharpness of the teeth, while the saw is off. Always end up with a cut on the tip of my finger...
In other words.. even IF you controlled it, it is kickback.
I can put my 066 Stihl into a large branch on a white oak and CAUSE instant kickback, and control it with my thumb wrapped around the grab handle, and my wrist sets the chain brake instantly. Would I, if it happened without my knowledge, have as much control? No, probably not, since I am not expecting it.. but thats why I keep my head OVER to the left of the bar by at least a good foot, since I would rather the chain hit my shoulder than my head.
The official definition is 'uncontrollable' meaning you aren't expecting it, nor are you always "set" for it to happen. Yes, fatigue is an enormous factor, as is simple safety ignorance. I have watches sawyers/fallers on fires, walk around a tree just felled, limbing it, in slick mud from a helicopter water bucket, revving their saw up to 10,000 rpm as they move.. tell me THAT'S safe! Every single person that saws, needs to RTFM, and watch videos, and learn from a person with the knowledge. I was fortunate to learn from a man named Dent, in California.. one of the best fallers ever known.. and the author of a book "Professional Timber Falling, A Procedural Approach" by D. Douglas Dent, published by the author, phone 541-383-8944 Another book is "Fallers' and Buckers' Handbook" by the Workers Compensation Board of British Columbia, phone (604) 273-2266 Note the publisher of the latter.. Workers Comp. of BC.
Point being, Dan, is that not only do you need to be not fatigued, but rather, hyperaware, especially in situations like you mention, root wads from a blowdown, that you KNOW are gonna be more dangerous than normal.
Two rules I made for myself.. Be alert and be MORE alert... and the other; Watch UP while falling, watch DOWN while bucking and limbing, and watch EVERYWHERE while the saw is running.
Yeah, I know.. lotsa watching... but, I don't have a single scratch other than my own stupidity in checking the sharpness of the teeth, while the saw is off. Always end up with a cut on the tip of my finger...