BlacknTan
Platinum Member
Are check valves available to add in line to a hydraulic top link? How do mfgrs other than CCM stop their valves from leaking down?? There must be devices that could be added... No??
Check valves
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kennyd
Advertiser
This was discussed YEARS ago by the late great Madreferee...and also by 3RRL.
There are DPOCV's available, but they are way bigger than what CCM has, and the pop-off pressure is not right for CUT use. Fact is the only game in town is what CCM gets from his secret source. BUT they will sell just the valves if you call them.
They don't...
Wayne County Hose
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It's the style of valve being used which leak down. I can show you applications without dpocv's that absolutely do not leak down. Get the right high quality valve and they don't leak down. A valve seals by the same principals as a cylinder. It's all in the seal style and configuration. Most valves on your CUT's don't even have internal seals, this is why they leak down.
kennyd
Advertiser
Good point. The poppet style and pilot operated valves used in commercial equipment are great! That is why you see raised equipment at Bobcat and rental dealer for weeks on end...
OP
BlacknTan
Platinum Member
Could someone point me in the direction of a high quality cylinder that does not need a check valve to prevent bleed down??
PM if you feel the need..
PM if you feel the need..
kennyd
Advertiser
As Andy said, its not necessarily the cylinder, but the spool valve that leaks and causes the cylinder to move. Why do you seem opposed to the CCM unit? It's certainly a proven system...
MichiganIron
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DPOCV's are not that difficult to find at 600psi cracking pressures.
Whether they are necessary or not is a different discussion. OSHA requires "Mechanical Locking" on hydraulic lifting equipment. A top link for a box scraper, or other landscaping equipment, on the back of a home owner's compact tractor probably does not quite fall under the OSHA requirement. CCM may require them for liability reasons. That's business in America.
Practically, even with minor spool leak-down, you can easily control a hydraulic top link to do what you want without a DPOCV. They are a nice feature, but not a necessity for the homeowner looking for the usefulness of a hydraulic top link.
You can find the same DPOCV's at Baileynet.com if you want that feature on your top link.
What you really want to be careful of to have a useful top link is the retracted length. Many of the top links have retracted lengths in excess of 21", which is too long to be useful on many compact tractors. You want a link that has a "center" of travel that is about your normal top link length. That gives you the ability to angle your equipment with the most versatility. For most compacts, that puts the "center of travel" somewhere around 21". Make sure the cylinder will do what you need for it to do. A DPOCV can be added to any hydraulic top link. Just get the right length for your tractor.
Whether they are necessary or not is a different discussion. OSHA requires "Mechanical Locking" on hydraulic lifting equipment. A top link for a box scraper, or other landscaping equipment, on the back of a home owner's compact tractor probably does not quite fall under the OSHA requirement. CCM may require them for liability reasons. That's business in America.
Practically, even with minor spool leak-down, you can easily control a hydraulic top link to do what you want without a DPOCV. They are a nice feature, but not a necessity for the homeowner looking for the usefulness of a hydraulic top link.
You can find the same DPOCV's at Baileynet.com if you want that feature on your top link.
What you really want to be careful of to have a useful top link is the retracted length. Many of the top links have retracted lengths in excess of 21", which is too long to be useful on many compact tractors. You want a link that has a "center" of travel that is about your normal top link length. That gives you the ability to angle your equipment with the most versatility. For most compacts, that puts the "center of travel" somewhere around 21". Make sure the cylinder will do what you need for it to do. A DPOCV can be added to any hydraulic top link. Just get the right length for your tractor.
OP
BlacknTan
Platinum Member
kennyd,
I'm in no way opposed to the CCM units. And I agree that they're proven by all the folks that swear by them here.
I just like to have alternatives...
And, thanks to everyone for their responses.
KML
Gold Member
O.K. stupid question time....
Is there any other cylinder on a tractor with a check valve? I didn't think there were. Just seems odd to me that one would worry about the top link leaking down but not care that the 3pt lift cylinder does.
I'm getting ready to add a hyd top link to my 2210 and I'm really wondering what the concern is. I just don't see it. I'm sure I'm missing something.....
Is there any other cylinder on a tractor with a check valve? I didn't think there were. Just seems odd to me that one would worry about the top link leaking down but not care that the 3pt lift cylinder does.
I'm getting ready to add a hyd top link to my 2210 and I'm really wondering what the concern is. I just don't see it. I'm sure I'm missing something.....
bjcsc
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Not that I have ever seen. As said twice so far, this has more to do with the valves than the cylinders. I'm working on adding TNT to my tractor and luckily my valves do not leak down and I won't need the check valves for the cylinders
...As far as going without it, yeah I guess you could keep readjusting it but that defeats the purpose. Whenever you get resistance (e.g.BB) it will change right before it does what you wanted it to...
tallyho8
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Charlesaf3
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check valve lets you pull off the remote hose and use it for something else if you don't have many remotes.
3RRL
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NOT having to readjust your toplink is one of the subtle, but greatly rewarding and satisfying feelings. It is just one of those things. I can tell you from experience now.
As Kenny mentioned, it's usually the valve and not the cylinder that causes what we see as "leak down". When I got my first hydraulic toplink from CCM, It was rock solid for all the road maintenance and building I've done. Well, somehow I managed to knock the DPOCV off. So I re plumbed it direct, without the DPOCV. The cylinder still works fine, but I've noticed that the angle I set my boxblade at does change slightly over the the time it takes to make one pass over my 1/2 mile long dirt road. This may not seem like a big deal, but I'll tell you it makes a difference. Before, I could set the boxblade perfectly and drag it to smooth the road ... enjoy the forest and animals, have a sip of coffee and smoke a cigarette. By the the time I reached the end, I turn around and do the other side back up the hill.
Now, if I don't keep an eye on it, I find it starting to cut and build up dirt in the box. I can accidentally re-shape the driveway when I don't want to. So I have to look back and constantly (strain my neck) check and re-adjust the boxblade to have it smooth like I want. I'm putting the DPOCV back on! I know my valves aren't as good as yours, but it's a poor man's fix for that problem. And it's not only my rear remote valves either. My backhoe stabilizer legs were constantly leaking down after I parked and removed it from the tractor. This was a real problem since it was very hard to put back on if everything did not line up just right with the subframe and all. So I added DPOCV to them and man, that hoe stays in the same position now. I've left it for over 4 months and it didn't move at all.
After I got the CCM toplink, I added my own hydraulic sidelinks and another valve for additional rear remotes. I put DPOCV's on them too. And also on my QA hydraulic gauge wheels, which are really the rear wheels for my rotary cutter. They don't change position unless I move them. There are several places to get DPOCV's and if Mark at CCM has extra ones, I buy them from him and use them. But they are Metric so be prepared to deal with adapter fittings to mount them. They are much smaller and work great. The Surplus Center ones work great too, but they are about 3 times bigger than CCM's.
Hope you don't mind me sharing some photos of my DPOCV's on different cylinders.
These are on my backhoe stabilizer legs.
They are CCM's and are very small and compact. They fit nicely in tight places.
These are from Surplus center. They are what I used for the hydraulic side links and are quite a bit larger than CCM's but don't look that big on these cylinders, since the cylinders are big 3-1/2" ones with 1-1/2" rods. Their cracking pressure (or pop off) is rated about the same as CCM's.
This is another CCM CPOCV used on the hydraulic gauge wheels.
They keep the level of my rotary cutter or boxblade or rake right where I set it.
Notice also that the DPOCV's are all hard mounted to the cylinder itself.
As Kenny mentioned, it's usually the valve and not the cylinder that causes what we see as "leak down". When I got my first hydraulic toplink from CCM, It was rock solid for all the road maintenance and building I've done. Well, somehow I managed to knock the DPOCV off.
So I re plumbed it direct, without the DPOCV. The cylinder still works fine, but I've noticed that the angle I set my boxblade at does change slightly over the the time it takes to make one pass over my 1/2 mile long dirt road. This may not seem like a big deal, but I'll tell you it makes a difference. Before, I could set the boxblade perfectly and drag it to smooth the road ... enjoy the forest and animals, have a sip of coffee and smoke a cigarette. By the the time I reached the end, I turn around and do the other side back up the hill. Now, if I don't keep an eye on it, I find it starting to cut and build up dirt in the box. I can accidentally re-shape the driveway when I don't want to. So I have to look back and constantly (strain my neck) check and re-adjust the boxblade to have it smooth like I want. I'm putting the DPOCV back on! I know my valves aren't as good as yours, but it's a poor man's fix for that problem. And it's not only my rear remote valves either. My backhoe stabilizer legs were constantly leaking down after I parked and removed it from the tractor. This was a real problem since it was very hard to put back on if everything did not line up just right with the subframe and all. So I added DPOCV to them and man, that hoe stays in the same position now. I've left it for over 4 months and it didn't move at all.
After I got the CCM toplink, I added my own hydraulic sidelinks and another valve for additional rear remotes. I put DPOCV's on them too. And also on my QA hydraulic gauge wheels, which are really the rear wheels for my rotary cutter. They don't change position unless I move them. There are several places to get DPOCV's and if Mark at CCM has extra ones, I buy them from him and use them. But they are Metric so be prepared to deal with adapter fittings to mount them. They are much smaller and work great. The Surplus Center ones work great too, but they are about 3 times bigger than CCM's.
Hope you don't mind me sharing some photos of my DPOCV's on different cylinders.
These are on my backhoe stabilizer legs.
They are CCM's and are very small and compact. They fit nicely in tight places.
These are from Surplus center. They are what I used for the hydraulic side links and are quite a bit larger than CCM's but don't look that big on these cylinders, since the cylinders are big 3-1/2" ones with 1-1/2" rods. Their cracking pressure (or pop off) is rated about the same as CCM's.
This is another CCM CPOCV used on the hydraulic gauge wheels.
They keep the level of my rotary cutter or boxblade or rake right where I set it.
Notice also that the DPOCV's are all hard mounted to the cylinder itself.
Charlesaf3
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i always learn something from you rob.
Wayne County Hose
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Rob, holy smokes, you're a mad scientist! You should open up your own shop. Naa, forget, you wouldn't want the cut in pay.
3RRL
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Hahaha, you guys are funny....
Not bad for a hydraulic hack, huh?
I'm jealous of you guys with those good, no leaky valves!
Not bad for a hydraulic hack, huh?
I'm jealous of you guys with those good, no leaky valves!
KML
Gold Member
Rob, Your set up is super! Thanks for all of the info! I had a hyd top link on my JD 455 so I agree that it darned handy to have. It was just kind of "miniature"
I can sure see where keeping the set position over time would be nice and keeping a cylinder "locked" in place with the lines disconnected, maybe to use for another function, would also be handy.
I think you all answered my question. I couldn't see the SAFETY advantage of check valves on the top link when the other cylinders don't have them (on my tractor anyway). That's how they're marketed. I just didn't get it and honestly still don't but I can see how they would be useful though.
Thanks!
I can sure see where keeping the set position over time would be nice and keeping a cylinder "locked" in place with the lines disconnected, maybe to use for another function, would also be handy.
I think you all answered my question. I couldn't see the SAFETY advantage of check valves on the top link when the other cylinders don't have them (on my tractor anyway). That's how they're marketed. I just didn't get it and honestly still don't but I can see how they would be useful though.
Thanks!
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3RRL
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KLM,
I have that exact same hyd cylinder as a top link on my Kama now.
The CCM cylinder went to my wife's Jinma. This one is a lot beefier since I have some Cat II implements. Only thing is I had to weld a longer connection on the tractor side. When I raised my 3pt all the way up using the lower connecting hole, the cylinder wanted to "wedge" between the tractor connection. So I lengthened it by about 2". That also gave me the right amount of forward and aft tilt for my boxblade.
How do you like yours?
I have that exact same hyd cylinder as a top link on my Kama now.
The CCM cylinder went to my wife's Jinma. This one is a lot beefier since I have some Cat II implements. Only thing is I had to weld a longer connection on the tractor side. When I raised my 3pt all the way up using the lower connecting hole, the cylinder wanted to "wedge" between the tractor connection. So I lengthened it by about 2". That also gave me the right amount of forward and aft tilt for my boxblade.
How do you like yours?
OP
BlacknTan
Platinum Member
Now, another fly in the ointment..
I was reading another tractor discussion board. Most of the members there claimed that check valves are NOT needed on the HTL, and in some cases possibly detrimental.
They claim that if the HTL moves, it signals a problem in the hydraulic circuit. Also, they seem to be using a bit beefier cylinders from Gannon and Tisco that what most of the guys here appear to be using..
Now I'm confused...
I was reading another tractor discussion board. Most of the members there claimed that check valves are NOT needed on the HTL, and in some cases possibly detrimental.
They claim that if the HTL moves, it signals a problem in the hydraulic circuit. Also, they seem to be using a bit beefier cylinders from Gannon and Tisco that what most of the guys here appear to be using..
Now I'm confused...
3RRL
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No, you are right Bill. The DPOCV's are definitely NOT a necessity.
What they do is keep you cylinder in the place you put it. Most useful if your valve bypasses a little. If your hydraulic cylinder bypasses a little, the implement could still leak down slowly, but generally that is not the case. It's usually the valves that control the cylinders. If the check valves are hard plumbed, it could save the implement from crashing down if a hose blew somewhere.
If you have a good valve and good cylinder, it should work well with no or very little leak down.
What they do is keep you cylinder in the place you put it. Most useful if your valve bypasses a little. If your hydraulic cylinder bypasses a little, the implement could still leak down slowly, but generally that is not the case. It's usually the valves that control the cylinders. If the check valves are hard plumbed, it could save the implement from crashing down if a hose blew somewhere.
If you have a good valve and good cylinder, it should work well with no or very little leak down.
