Flail Mower Choosing the correct flail mower

[Ricn]

Having read all the posts AI2 mentions just above, and before buying a mower, I learned a ton of great stuff concerning my flail mowers use. As for the different blades, just go to the Woodmaxx.com website and read about them...Very easy to understand.

Ricn

 

[leonz]

Re: Choosing the correct flail mower(part one)

Maybe Leonz could give us a quick tutorial on proper blade type selection for cutting grass vs. weeds and brush. I知 in the market for a flail and I知 confused on blade types myself.

If anyone has time to learn more about flail mowers, check out this discussion from TBN . 4815 posts and 482 pages. Read on. Lets Talk Flail Mowers http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/118882-lets-talk-flail-mowers-482.html
Al

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Good morning rlgufstafson,

In ones choosing a flail mower the use of the flail mower is the major portion of the decision how it will be used.

The current John Deere Flail mowers are used for grass and brush mowing and use side slicer and scoop knives on their smaller flail mowers depending on the knife hanger spacing. I do not remember if the JD flail mowers have a thatching blade option.

The old Mott flail mowers as well as those offered today were made with small diameter flail mower rotors to save money. This also allowed them to provide several knife types to the end user which were longer and either offered as a very thin long side slicer knife for grass mowing in places like golf courses and large estates with fine sod lawns.
Smaller flail mower rotors made with tubular steel weldments are the type used by many flail mower manufacturers to save money.

finish type flailmowers have knife mounting stations that are closer together simply because the manufacturer chose to use more knives per foot and the knife design used/uses a bored/stamped round mounting hole only allowing the knife to travel in one plane rather than allowing it to become an airfoil and spread out to mow more area allowing the side slicer knives to overlap and by doing so creating smaller clippings that will dissolve faster.

The fixed knife mounting stations are staggered and greater in number in a finish flail mower to allow the knife pairs to overlap and this was and is a design compromise of sorts as they were/are seeking a greater market share.
This is why the Mott interstater and other flail mowers sold today have a greater number of knife mounting stations/knife pairs.


If flail mower rotors were manufactured using the same type of larger diameter flail mower rotor with a tool less mounting system it would save the consumer money on knife purchases and many more flail mowers would be used for multi purpose mowing with smaller heat treated side slicer knives. the brush and grass would dissolve faster and compost faster as well.

The Mathews Company Lawn Genie flail mowers had a tool less knife mounting system on a compression spring secured hanger loop.:thumbsup:
The Lawn Genie Flail Mowers used a 2 piece rolled steel weldment to create these flail mower rotors, A strap iron formed weldment is welded to the flail mower rotor
to create the individual knife mounting station to which the compression spring loop knife hanger is attached. This flail mower rotor was balanced using a high speed balancing machine before the knives were mounted on the flail mower rotor and after.

These flail mower rotors also benefited from two air paddles that aided in picking up the grass by creating a pressure gradient to lift he clippings up into the collection basket or back to the ground. he air paddles also aided in picking up long grass already cut and left on the ground if mowing was delayed by rain.

The Mathews Lawn Genie flail mower knives were beautiful in that they were created using a tapered edge which increases the cutting edge length and to make them aerodynamic allowing them the ability to float at a level state along the horizontal axis to create a flat mowing knife to slice the grass blade level as it meets it and lift the grass up and over the flail mower rotor to be collected in the bin or thrown back on the ground.

The side slicer knife with the elongated hanger hole mounted on the loop hanger allows the side slicer knife to become airborne and level at speed to allow the grass to be cut perfectly every time.

This allowed the user to mount their beautiful side slicer knives and or a thatching knife/detchatching blade between the side slicer knives on the knife hanger.
By lowering the flail mowers cutting height it allowed the user to mow and dethatch at the same time if desired. It also created the look of a toothed grass blade cut on the lawn which some of you experience with the fixed knife stations on your flail mowers. I will go into more detail regarding why this happens later.

Crop shredders have large heavy diameter tubular flail mower rotors to mount the weldment's used for cast scoop knives, machined scoop knives in the case Mathews Company crop shredders and other American manufacturers.

Side slicer knives are multi purpose; They are used in many types of mowing being crop shredding, mowing brush and mowing good sod on lawns, they are manufactured in several lengths and thicknesses in heat treated knives and knives that are not heat treated. Heat treated cutting edges last longer and are best dressed/sharpened using a cool wet grinding method to hold the heat treated temper of the steel.

Scoop knives are made in several styles. One being a strap iron knife that is sheared to length, punched for the mounting holes then rolled/folded, curved upward and the edge ground to create the hanger hole portion of the scoop/web foot/duck foot. The scoop knifes edge is ground into the knife and then the knife is heat treated. Some scoop knives formed from strap steel are not heat treated and are also curved upward to aid in lifting the material after it is cut carrying the grass and brush over the flail mower rotor back to the ground.

Scoop knives come in two types being cast or formed in various sizes, thicknesses and lengths as in the case of the heavy paddle type scoop knives used in crop shredding made by Mathews and others that are curved upward to carry the crops stems and leaves over the flail mower rotor.

The knives made by a Chinese manufacturer has a gusset in the front of the knife to aid in strengthening the scoop hammer knife. With the gusset being in the front of the hammer scoop knife places it directly in the impact zone of the material being cut/sheared at the time of brush mowing/clearing, said Gusset should be in the non impact zone and the knife redesigned in my opinion as it may fail over time and the knife may or will fail after long periods of use.

The heavy cast hammer knives offered by the Italian manufacturers and other Eastern European manufacturer INO and others are cast, balanced, ground and heated treated to aid in adding strength to the knife and do not have a gusset in the front of the knife. The hammer type of flail mower knife allows one to cut grass and brush and vineyard pruning's and small pruned limbs in orchards.

The scoop/hammer knife does not allow the user to recut the material a second time as these knives do not create enough lift to recut the material a second time unless it is dry and brittle.

I hope I did not forget anything and I hope I have helped with the issue of flail mower selection rather than clouded the issue with extreme detail.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Re: Choosing the correct flail mower(part one)

Side slicer knives are multi purpose; They are used in many types of mowing being crop shredding, mowing brush and mowing good sod on lawns, they are manufactured in several lengths and thicknesses in heat treated knives and knives that are not heat treated. Heat treated cutting edges last longer and are best dressed/sharpened using a cool wet grinding method to hold the heat treated temper of the steel.
***
The scoop/hammer knife does not allow the user to recut the material a second time as these knives do not create enough lift to recut the material a second time unless it is dry and brittle.

Always a wealth of information Leonz!

If I am reading your comments correctly:
-side slicer knives create lift and have a greater mulching effect
-scoop/hammer knives don't create lift, so material is only cut once and not mulched as much

Correct?

I am also going to infer:
1- side slicer knives could be set up to create a flat cut, but the ones currently installed on lower price machines don't do so resulting in the combed appearance
2- I assume scoop/hammer knives will create a conventional flat and level cut
3- if side slicers mulch and scoops don't, I'm going to guess that more horsepower is required to use side slicers in any type of material, but especially on lighter material (tall grass and thin weeds) that will get mulched to a greater extent

Let me know if those are also correct. Thanks!

 

[lostcreekranch]

Re: Choosing the correct flail mower(part one)

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Good morning rlgufstafson,

In ones choosing a flail mower the use of the flail mower is the major portion of the decision how it will be used.

The current John Deere Flail mowers are used for grass and brush mowing and use side slicer and scoop knives on their smaller flail mowers depending on the knife hanger spacing. I do not remember if the JD flail mowers have a thatching blade option.

The old Mott flail mowers as well as those offered today were made with small diameter flail mower rotors to save money. This also allowed them to provide several knife types to the end user which were longer and either offered as a very thin long side slicer knife for grass mowing in places like golf courses and large estates with fine sod lawns.
Smaller flail mower rotors made with tubular steel weldments are the type used by many flail mower manufacturers to save money.

finish type flailmowers have knife mounting stations that are closer together simply because the manufacturer chose to use more knives per foot and the knife design used/uses a bored/stamped round mounting hole only allowing the knife to travel in one plane rather than allowing it to become an airfoil and spread out to mow more area allowing the side slicer knives to overlap and by doing so creating smaller clippings that will dissolve faster.

The fixed knife mounting stations are staggered and greater in number in a finish flail mower to allow the knife pairs to overlap and this was and is a design compromise of sorts as they were/are seeking a greater market share.
This is why the Mott interstater and other flail mowers sold today have a greater number of knife mounting stations/knife pairs.


If flail mower rotors were manufactured using the same type of larger diameter flail mower rotor with a tool less mounting system it would save the consumer money on knife purchases and many more flail mowers would be used for multi purpose mowing with smaller heat treated side slicer knives. the brush and grass would dissolve faster and compost faster as well.

The Mathews Company Lawn Genie flail mowers had a tool less knife mounting system on a compression spring secured hanger loop.:thumbsup:
The Lawn Genie Flail Mowers used a 2 piece rolled steel weldment to create these flail mower rotors, A strap iron formed weldment is welded to the flail mower rotor
to create the individual knife mounting station to which the compression spring loop knife hanger is attached. This flail mower rotor was balanced using a high speed balancing machine before the knives were mounted on the flail mower rotor and after.

These flail mower rotors also benefited from two air paddles that aided in picking up the grass by creating a pressure gradient to lift he clippings up into the collection basket or back to the ground. he air paddles also aided in picking up long grass already cut and left on the ground if mowing was delayed by rain.

The Mathews Lawn Genie flail mower knives were beautiful in that they were created using a tapered edge which increases the cutting edge length and to make them aerodynamic allowing them the ability to float at a level state along the horizontal axis to create a flat mowing knife to slice the grass blade level as it meets it and lift the grass up and over the flail mower rotor to be collected in the bin or thrown back on the ground.

The side slicer knife with the elongated hanger hole mounted on the loop hanger allows the side slicer knife to become airborne and level at speed to allow the grass to be cut perfectly every time.

This allowed the user to mount their beautiful side slicer knives and or a thatching knife/detchatching blade between the side slicer knives on the knife hanger.
By lowering the flail mowers cutting height it allowed the user to mow and dethatch at the same time if desired. It also created the look of a toothed grass blade cut on the lawn which some of you experience with the fixed knife stations on your flail mowers. I will go into more detail regarding why this happens later.

Crop shredders have large heavy diameter tubular flail mower rotors to mount the weldment's used for cast scoop knives, machined scoop knives in the case Mathews Company crop shredders and other American manufacturers.

Side slicer knives are multi purpose; They are used in many types of mowing being crop shredding, mowing brush and mowing good sod on lawns, they are manufactured in several lengths and thicknesses in heat treated knives and knives that are not heat treated. Heat treated cutting edges last longer and are best dressed/sharpened using a cool wet grinding method to hold the heat treated temper of the steel.

Scoop knives are made in several styles. One being a strap iron knife that is sheared to length, punched for the mounting holes then rolled/folded, curved upward and the edge ground to create the hanger hole portion of the scoop/web foot/duck foot. The scoop knifes edge is ground into the knife and then the knife is heat treated. Some scoop knives formed from strap steel are not heat treated and are also curved upward to aid in lifting the material after it is cut carrying the grass and brush over the flail mower rotor back to the ground.

Scoop knives come in two types being cast or formed in various sizes, thicknesses and lengths as in the case of the heavy paddle type scoop knives used in crop shredding made by Mathews and others that are curved upward to carry the crops stems and leaves over the flail mower rotor.

The knives made by a Chinese manufacturer has a gusset in the front of the knife to aid in strengthening the scoop hammer knife. With the gusset being in the front of the hammer scoop knife places it directly in the impact zone of the material being cut/sheared at the time of brush mowing/clearing, said Gusset should be in the non impact zone and the knife redesigned in my opinion as it may fail over time and the knife may or will fail after long periods of use.

The heavy cast hammer knives offered by the Italian manufacturers and other Eastern European manufacturer INO and others are cast, balanced, ground and heated treated to aid in adding strength to the knife and do not have a gusset in the front of the knife. The hammer type of flail mower knife allows one to cut grass and brush and vineyard pruning's and small pruned limbs in orchards.

The scoop/hammer knife does not allow the user to recut the material a second time as these knives do not create enough lift to recut the material a second time unless it is dry and brittle.

I hope I did not forget anything and I hope I have helped with the issue of flail mower selection rather than clouded the issue with extreme detail.

Thanks very much!

 

[lostcreekranch]

Leonz, thanks much!

 

[audsp98]

Great info Leonz. Your precise description of the difference in blade has helped tremendously.

 

[leonz]

Re: Choosing the correct flail mower(part one)

Flail mowers:

Always a wealth of information Leonz!

If I am reading your comments correctly:


-side slicer knives create lift and have a greater mulching effect

yes
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-scoop/hammer knives don't create lift, so material is only cut once and not mulched as much

(They create lift when mowing but do not recut on the second pass if a second pass is made-this is why you see the recutting bars on the flailmowers with hammer(cast)knives Read Docsfarm posts to see how happy he is with his Landpride/Maschio orchard and vineyard flail shredder).




Correct?

I am also going to infer:
1- side slicer knives could be set up to create a flat cut, but the ones currently installed on lower price machines don't do so resulting in the combed appearance

Yes that is true. The finish cut JD 290 and 390 have the loop knife hangers unless that has changed recently. I do not remember off hand if the knives supplied with them are slotted like my Mathews knives.

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2- I assume scoop/hammer knives will create a conventional flat and level cut


Yes, please refer back to docsfarm talking about his landpride/Maschio Orchard and Vineyard flail shredder.

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3- if side slicers mulch and scoops don't, I'm going to guess that more horsepower is required to use side slicers in any type of material, but especially on lighter material (tall grass and thin weeds) that will get mulched to a greater extent

Not necessarily. My father used his first towed 8 horse power(Briggs and Stratton)36 inch finish cut Mathews company Lawn Genie to knock down 12-15 foot golden rod and heavy underbrush in our old horse pasture to make a 2 mile jogging trail for my mother so she would not have to jog on the county road where we lived. It took pop a while but he brought it down to the sod and kept it mowed at two inches for her until she came down with Lupus when she could no longer jog.
I used the towed 16 horse power Briggs and Stratton powered lawn genie to mow the field as needed to 2 inches in height when and where required on the first pass. I still have this mower and when I mow and Pick up I have close to 30 bushels of clippings each time I mow my property of almost one acre and it still works after 37 years with new parts and the same engine just as it did when it was new.
You can mow heavy brush with a very small mule and you just have to travel slowly(a fender radio helps in this case) as long as you have the mower set low being 2-4 inches on the first pass.

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so much depends completely on your desired use of the flail mower but a Vrisimo will also handle everything and then some when it comes to mowing and brush clearing. A JD290 or JD390 will also do this for you but you will have knife hangers versus the knives being attached directly to the knife station weldments on the Vrisimo and other brands.

its best to decide what kind of mowing your going to do what kind of cut you wish to have and the BIGGIE is how often you intend to mow. A high horsepower mule with a wide flail mower is the only thing that will knock down once a month or two month mowing AS LONG AS you travel slowly while mowing to recut the clippings/brush. Otherwise mowing in a spiral pattern and overlapping slightly at low speeds will save you fuel and time as there is no need to stop, back up, turn around and back up while mowing to mow the edge and mow over to the next pass to continue to the far end and repeat the process. Mowing in a spiral is quicker and you will have radii left to mow in the corners mowing from the outside edge to the mowed portion while traveling around the field edges will be the biggest time spender for you.

If I can assume the two mules in your avatar are in your stable perhaps a folding INO brand flail mower would be your best option?

Another option would be the smaller 15 foot Hiniker crop shredder with side slicers (that can be 3 point hitch mounted or towed from what I remember of it). It can mow as low as 2 inches in cutting height and it can be towed end wise making it road legal for width and has a rear marker light option for towing and a hydraulic lift kit with mounted towing wheels that would not interfere with the three point hitch units as the end hitch has a manual jack to adjust it for the mules towing bar height.

The three point hitch folding INO models would have rear marker lights and slow moving vehicle placards mounted right on the center and outboard sections of the folding flail mower from what I remember of them.

Neither the larger INO crop shredders with the spiral mounted scoop knives or the Hiniker flail crop shredders with the large diameter flail mower rotor have a rear roller, wherein the mowing height is controlled with the mules hydraulic draft controls.

I hope I have not clouded the issue further.

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Let me know if those are also correct. Thanks!