Circulating Pump / Heater

[Frank Sorbello]

I was thinking about how hard starting this Robin is, especially with the hydraulic load that it carries. Is it possible to install an electric circulating pump with a heater into the hydraulic tank.

Thanks

Frank

 

[Marks481]

You could just installation in immersion type heater, which I think is a more usual solution to keep hydraulics warm in cold weather.

I have a magnetic block heater, but find it is essentially useless (it is only 300W, and it is the largest I could find). I default to a 220V space heater to get it warmed up when all else fails.

 

[Frank Sorbello]

Could something like this work on the Hydraulic tank?

Kat's 1500 Watt Circulating Tank Heater — Model# 13150 | Engine Heaters Blankets| Northern Tool + Equipment

thanks

Frank

 

[aczlan]

You could just installation in immersion type heater, which I think is a more usual solution to keep hydraulics warm in cold weather.
I have a magnetic block heater, but find it is essentially useless (it is only 220W, and it is the largest I could find). I default to a 220V space heater to get it warmed up when all else fails.

They make a 500 watt stick on heater now: Kat's 24500 500 Watt 5.5" x 8.5" Universal Hot Pad Heater : Amazon.com : Automotive stick it to the bottom and let convection take care of the circulation for you.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Could something like this work on the Hydraulic tank?
Kat's 1500 Watt Circulating Tank Heater — Model# 13150 | Engine Heaters Blankets| Northern Tool + Equipment

Not unless you use a coolant loop to heat the tank, or like to burn your equipment up. That's intended to heat antifreeze and could light hydraulic fluid on fire.

Aaron Z

 

[MossRoad]

They make a 500 watt stick on heater now: Kat's 24500 500 Watt 5.5" x 8.5" Universal Hot Pad Heater : Amazon.com : Automotive stick it to the bottom and let convection take care of the circulation for you.

Aaron Z

If you stick it on the bottom it will get scraped off rather quickly. The PT hydraulic tank is also the skid plate for the bottom of the unit.

 

[aczlan]

If you stick it on the bottom it will get scraped off rather quickly. The PT hydraulic tank is also the skid plate for the bottom of the unit.

Ah, I thought it was inside the tub. Perhaps low on a protected side?

Aaron Z

 

[MossRoad]

Get that engine running well first. That will resolve most of your troubles.

As I see it, the hydraulic fluid in the pumps (there are three pumps) is cold and thick. They cannot be disengaged from the engine, so the starter has to be able to push not only the engine over, but the cold, thick fluid in all three pumps.

If you warm only the fluid in the tank, the cold, thick fluid will still be in the pumps and lines. The starter will still have to push that through before any warmer fluid can get in there.

I just don't see how warming the fluid in the tank will help that much with starting. If I had to warm the unit up, I would probably throw some heat at the pumps and engine instead. Just watch out for the fuel system or WOOF!

 

[aczlan]

Get that engine running well first. That will resolve most of your troubles.

Sounds like a good place to start

As I see it, the hydraulic fluid in the pumps (there are three pumps) is cold and thick. They cannot be disengaged from the engine, so the starter has to be able to push not only the engine over, but the cold, thick fluid in all three pumps.
If you warm only the fluid in the tank, the cold, thick fluid will still be in the pumps and lines. The starter will still have to push that through before any warmer fluid can get in there.
I just don't see how warming the fluid in the tank will help that much with starting. If I had to warm the unit up, I would probably throw some heat at the pumps and engine instead. Just watch out for the fuel system or WOOF!

Good point, perhaps a small unit on the pumps (such as Kat's 24050 50 Watt 2"x 5" Universal Hot Pad Heater : Amazon.com : Automotive ) in addition to a big one on the tank?
Then if you wanted to get really fancy, you could have them plug into a triple tap cord (such as Amazon.com: Coleman Cable 04004 6-Feet 14/3-Wire Gauge SJTW Tri-Source Extension Cord, Orange: Home Improvement ) and just plug that in when you want to warm things up.

Aaron Z

 

[MossRoad]

Sounds like a good place to start

Good point, perhaps a small unit on the pumps (such as Kat's 24050 50 Watt 2"x 5" Universal Hot Pad Heater : Amazon.com : Automotive ) in addition to a big one on the tank?
Then if you wanted to get really fancy, you could have them plug into a triple tap cord (such as Amazon.com: Coleman Cable 04004 6-Feet 14/3-Wire Gauge SJTW Tri-Source Extension Cord, Orange: Home Improvement ) and just plug that in when you want to warm things up.

Aaron Z

That looks pretty good. Cheap price on the heaters, too.

 

[Marks481]

I think Mossroad is on to something. You have to heat up the engine compartment to help with the engine start, not the hydraulic tank.

I aim my 5000W 220V space heater in the back end of the engine compartment (not close enough so stuff melts), and let that sit for an hour. Seems to make a big difference. Little 1500W heaters are useless when the garage is at 20F.

 

[Frank Sorbello]

I agree with you MossRoad. Would love to be able to get the engine running, or at least know what the problem is with out sinking a boat load of money into it.

Terry told me last week the Robin is a great engine, however it is one of the worst when it comes to cold starting. Aren't there other brand engines that are good engines which start in cold weather climates without going to extremes.

 

[aczlan]

Hit your local thrift store and get couple of big heavy blankets, then use them, a $20 electric "milkhouse" heater (we have this one and it works well) and possibly a couple pieces of plywood to get things toasty warm (build an insulated "doghouse" around the engine/pump area and let the heater run till everything is toasty warm). Then try starting it.

Aaron Z

 

[cqaigy2]

Hit your local thrift store and get couple of big heavy blankets, then use them, a $20 electric "milkhouse" heater (we have this one and it works well) and possibly a couple pieces of plywood to get things toasty warm (build an insulated "doghouse" around the engine/pump area and let the heater run till everything is toasty warm). Then try starting it.

Aaron Z

seems like this would be doable. I picked up one of those heaters at a thrift shop too, about two dollars, now it's in the well house.

 

[ponytug]

Ummmm....

If you are getting a space heater near gasoline, you want to be really, really careful.

In general, the ceramic heaters are considered safer because the heating element is at a lower temperature compared with the milk house heaters. In all cases, you want to be concerned about a thermostat or switch that might arc.

Personally, I would stick with the magnetic heaters or the space heaters at a distance. I would point out that most of the oil recirculates in the drive circuit, so even if the pump and/or hydraulic tank is warm, as soon as the oil goes out to the wheel motors, it will get cold until the drive circuit warms up.

As an aside, the hydraulic pumps and motors have very tight tolerances and are designed to work at a constant temperature. TBased on my limited understanding, I think that the way that we use them is decidedly off label. Once a PT is started in the cold, I would give it a chance to warm up throughout before pushing it. I think MR's method of starting the PT and then letting it idle while he shovels is a great idea for longevity.

Oh, another vote for getting the engine taken care of first.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

I took a video about two weeks ago of me starting my 12year old 2001 PT425 Kohler command engine with 500ish hours and the original spark plugs at 9 degrees in my garage. (Its too big to post here, but I'll figure something out eventually) Anyhow, I didn't use any starting fluid nor did I put it on the battery charger for the past two months. Had I had two hands free to operate the throttle and choke, it would have started in about 5 seconds. However, I was trying to hold the iPhone with one hand and it was not possible to manipulate the throttle and key at the same time. Once I put the camera down and used two hands it fired right up.

Could it be something as simple as the starter motor on the Robin is too weak to turn the engine fast enough when it is pushing cold hydraulic fluid?

 

[MossRoad]

Has anyone tried using a booster battery with jumper cables on the Robin equipped PT to see if they can get some more amps behind the starter?

 

[dchapman]

I use an old hair dryer. I put a shop vac extension on it maybe two foot long ,three or four inch dia. I kind of latch it onto the hydraulic pump or aim it at the pump,shut the hood on it and throw an old blanket over the dog house cover. Let it run for about twenty minutes or untill the pump feels warm. starts up every time.pt 180 robin 18hp.

 

[Marks481]

Could it be something as simple as the starter motor on the Robin is too weak to turn the engine fast enough when it is pushing cold hydraulic fluid?

Robin put a bigger starter motor on their engines starting about 4 years ago. The PT in question undoubtedly predates that. I have the old starter motor on mine.

So yes, that could be part of it.

If you are getting a space heater near gasoline, you want to be really, really careful.

Not too worried about fuel vapors in 20-30F weather. I use the space heater all the time. Works way better now that I have a 5600W 220V version (insert Tim the Toolman grunt). With the gas cap on the tank, nothing is going to happen.


Obviously keep it at least a foot away; don't want to melt anything.

 

[MossRoad]

I use an old hair dryer. I put a shop vac extension on it maybe two foot long ,three or four inch dia. I kind of latch it onto the hydraulic pump or aim it at the pump,shut the hood on it and throw an old blanket over the dog house cover. Let it run for about twenty minutes or untill the pump feels warm. starts up every time.pt 180 robin 18hp.

We used to do something similar with airplane engines only it was a propane burner. But no reason it wouldn't work. Just make sure the hose is able to take the temps and won't burst into flames and light the blanket on fire.