ck 25 glow plug relay ???

[bailbud]

my tractor just kinda started to have trouble starting . I checked my gp's and one tested open with my multimeter so I finally got it replaced but still not wanting to start right . When I unplug the connector going from the relay to the gp's and turn the key I get batt voltage however when I plug in the connector or as it should be to start and turn the key I get .12 volts at the gp . Not sure if the relay is over loading or failing under load , I ran out of light tonight . Any ideas on what to check next ? it will start with enough cranking or sticking my heat gun in the air intake . After starting it runs perfect and will start again fine when warm. the new GP looks a little diff than the old one but they are from diff manufactures . its an 07 with 1700hrs.
what I read tonight the relays get dirty maybe should clean ? Full day of work tomorrow hopefully can have a look tomorrow

 

[Roadworthy]

You may have dirty or pitted contacts in the relay. The added resistance can prevent current flow. Many relays are sealed and contacts cannot be cleaned. The low resistance of a glow plug could cause all the voltage to drop across the relay contacts.

 

[k0ua]

Your next step is to replace the glow plug relay. If the contacts are a high resistance then the severe voltage drop you are seeing could occur. By definition, you are not delivering any current to the glow plugs because of this severe voltage drop.

 

[34Willys]

Ohms law. Depending on where you are measuring voltage, current should be high and voltage low when relay contacts close.
So .12 volts is probably correct.

Patrick

 

[k0ua]

Ohms law. Depending on where you are measuring voltage, current should be high and voltage low when relay contacts close.
So .12 volts is probably correct.

Patrick

Uh. no it is not correct.

 

[Kioti Paul]

Sure sounds like the relay to me; or a loose or corroded connector. From reading many threads, the relays do seem to give a lot of trouble.

Even when cranking with the starter, the voltage drop should be just 2-3 volts. The GP's do take quite a bit of current, but nothing like the starter. The voltage drop (I think) would normally be less than 1 volt.

The relay(s) on my DK45 are sealed, and cannot be disassembled for cleaning; but they are also a common relay used in many automotive applications and can be found in most automotive parts stores.

Also, my tractor, and many others have 1 or 2 other identical relays located right next to it. They can be 'swapped' in order to 'verify' the problem - Of course, that will cause a different 'circuit' to not be operable (probably the starter, or the fuel solenoid)


Edit: I re-read your first post,,,,, if your relay is wired the same as mine, (in the plug for the GP relay) one wire should ALWAYS have battery voltage (regardless of the position of the ign switch), another wire should have battery voltage when the ign switch is in the RUN position (or "glow Plug" position).

 

[bailbud]

OMG after an hour of looking through my manual on the computer I still cannot find where or which is my GP relay . All your responses were helpful . I called my closest dealer and they said the relay is on back order so I am hoping if I can locate the correct relay I can take it into my parts store and they can find something for me . Was pondering today and was wondering if I can run a jumper wire from the batt to the GP'S for 8-10 sec to warm things up for a start up with out wrecking anything else until I can replace the relay?

 

[rademamj1]

You can buy the Kioti glow plug relay on Ebay at following link. I am pretty sure it fits all the 3 cylinder diesel engine models in the entire Kioti lineup, from CK to DK to NX models. The first link is standard 5-pin relay. Second link is standard 70Amp 4-pin glow plug relay for most CK and DK tractors.

eBay


https://www.ebay.com/i/263051151503...0aevR3rVi5851L2nBgvIXAbQl3GlU5phoCCcMQAvD_BwE

 

[k0ua]

OMG after an hour of looking through my manual on the computer I still cannot find where or which is my GP relay . All your responses were helpful . I called my closest dealer and they said the relay is on back order so I am hoping if I can locate the correct relay I can take it into my parts store and they can find something for me . Was pondering today and was wondering if I can run a jumper wire from the batt to the GP'S for 8-10 sec to warm things up for a start up with out wrecking anything else until I can replace the relay?

You can but it better be a stout one, able to handle up to 60 or 70 amps. If you run a small wire it will heat white hot instantly and burn your hands just before it acts like a fuse and burns open. I wouldn't run anything smaller than number 8.

Ohm out the glow plug rail with the glow back to the relay contact. or note the wire color code and trace back to the relay. Should not be a problem to figure out the relay. I don't own a CK 25, but my DK35 has three relays on the dash, one 70 amp rated contacts for the glow plugs and the others are rated for 40 or 50 amps, I can't remember for sure. They are standard automotive relays, best purchased at the auto parts store. You could buy 10 of them for what Kioti wants for one. Be careful of diagrams showing the placement of the relays, because people swap around the harness plugs, and you cannot be sure which one is which. Also since the fuel solenoid and starter solenoid relays are rated for less current, that may be why your relay is burned up to begin with.

 

[Kioti Paul]

BailBud, sorry, even after reading your 1st post several times, I still misunderstood where you were measuring the voltage (I thought you were checking at the relay plug - I do not know why I thought that!)

Since you get 12 volts at the GP when you turn the ign on, I would think the relay is obviously energizing. My relay makes a distinct "click" when energizing. I would think - if you can get a helper - have that person turn the ign on / off while you listen carefully for the "click" ; maybe you could trace it down that way.

My DK45 is a 2008 model, the fuel tank is behind the engine, the relay (3 of them) are on the heat shield between the engine and fuel tank - I have NO idea if your tractor is configured the same way. Look for a small, black "box" (2" cube +/-) with 4 wires plugged into the bottom - probably on the 'firewall'.

Also, for cold starting you might give some 'starting fluid' a try (it's what diesels used before glow plugs). It is available at all auto parts stores. It is in an aerosol can, give it a 2 second 'shot' into the air filter inlet just before cranking (or better, AS the engine is cranking)

Best of luck!

 

[k0ua]

He said he did NOT get 12 volts at the glow plug rail. He said he got .12 volts at the glow plug rail. Big difference in between 12 volts and .12 volts.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

Also.... DO NOT USE STARTING FLUID ON A MODERN DIESEL! It will cause damage.

ETHER & STARTING FLUIDS IN DIESEL ENGINES
ARE STARTING FLUIDS SAFE TO USE IN DIESEL ENGINES?
With one exception starting fluids, including ether, should never be used in a diesel engine as there is an extremely high risk of detonation and the ensuing damage. If a diesel engine is hard to start in cold weather or requires ether to start, there is an obvious problem. In lieu of starting the engine with a blast of ether, appropriate diagnostics should be performed. A diesel engine requires proper fuel pressure, compression, and in many instances a functioning glow plug/intake heater system to start smoothly. Additionally, engine block heaters should be used appropriately in extremely cold conditions; they're there for a reason. If these systems are operating properly the engine should start without the need of a starting fluid.

STARTING FLUID/ETHER IN DIESEL ENGINES WITH GLOW PLUGS
Ether/starting fluid is also not compatible with any diesel engine that features glow plugs or any form of intake heater (grid heaters, intake air heaters, etc). The glowing red hot tip of a glow plug provides more than enough heat to ignite starting fluid mixtures. As in the aforementioned case, there is no way to control the combustion of this fuel as it enters the cylinder and detonation is likely to occur.
Modern diesel engines are designed for all weather operation, and thus it should NEVER be necessary to use starting fluid in the first place. If an engine will not start, there is an obvious malfunction or fault in one or more systems. In engines that are so equipped, a properly functioning glow plug system is necessary for easy starting in cold conditions. Fuel system maintenance is also important for starting ease in cold weather; low fuel pressure may hinder combustion in cold conditions due to poor atomization. Most, if not all diesel engines are equipped with block heater provisions, which allow the engine oil and/or engine coolant to be warmed prior to starting. These should be used to your advantage as they not only promote easier cold starts, but also protect your engine by reducing wet stacking and fuel dilution during the engine’s warm-up cycle.

....... the above article excerpts were taken From an article from "Diesel Hub". Here is a link to the full article:

Are Starting Fluids (Ether) Safe to Use in Diesel Engines

Sorry to sidetrack from the initial discussion.....

 

[AchingBack]

You can buy the Kioti glow plug relay on Ebay at following link. I am pretty sure it fits all the 3 cylinder diesel engine models in the entire Kioti lineup, from CK to DK to NX models. The first link is standard 5-pin relay. Second link is standard 70Amp 4-pin glow plug relay for most CK and DK tractors.

eBay


https://www.ebay.com/i/263051151503...0aevR3rVi5851L2nBgvIXAbQl3GlU5phoCCcMQAvD_BwE

That is an amazingly low price. I paid $98.00 for my Mahindra glow plug relay.

 

[Kioti Paul]

He said he did NOT get 12 volts at the glow plug rail. He said he got .12 volts at the glow plug rail. Big difference in between 12 volts and .12 volts.

In his 3rd sentence he said "When I unplug the connector going from the relay to the gp's and turn the key I get batt voltage...." Battery voltage IS (for all practical purposes) 12 volts.

It is not until he plugs in the gp's that the voltage drops to .12 volts.

 

[bailbud]

thanks again for all your reply's . the parts depot did find a relay , was over priced I'm sure but after replacing she fired right up . I'm thinking the GP has been burnt out for awhile as she fired up better than for a couple years.

 

[bailbud]

The confusion can arise because he really doesn't say where he measured the battery voltage at first. Later after reconnecting the wire, he specifies that it's being measured at the glow plug. As is often the case, readers are left to assume facts. Obviously, without any connections, the glow plug buss can't have any voltage on it. Therefore, he had to be measuring the voltage on the wire leading to the relay. With some high resistance and a very light current draw, 12 volts could be a legitimate voltage reading. Reconnect things with a high current demand and you end up with .12 volts on the GP buss.

when i was checking voltage . first I unplugged the wire from the harness going direct to the plugs , then reconnected and tested from the Gp with everything hooked up . tonight with the new relay I got 10.5 volts at the GP when I turned the key to run . hopes this will clear things up .
Thanks again for all the input it helps .

 

[Kioti Paul]

From trying to participate in some of the postings, I have found it to be VERY difficult to 'put on paper' exactly what I am thinking in my head! There will always be different interpretations of what any poster (is) was saying.

I think the best we all can do is to read the posts carefully; then give your opinion according to your understanding of what the problem is, while interpreting the poster's diagnostic steps as best you can.

If enough people participate, someone will interpret the clues correctly.

 

[k0ua]

when i was checking voltage . first I unplugged the wire from the harness going direct to the plugs , then reconnected and tested from the Gp with everything hooked up . tonight with the new relay I got 10.5 volts at the GP when I turned the key to run . hopes this will clear things up .
Thanks again for all the input it helps .

That sounds exactly right. the glow plugs draw about 20 amperes each. so x3 equals about 60 amps. You can expect some voltage drop in the wiring to the GP relay, the GP relay contacts themselves and the wire coming from the GP relay to the GP buss. So about 60 amps at about 10.5 volts is about 630 watts of power being turned into heat by the GP's themselves. Nothing to sneeze at.

 

[k0ua]

Whoops, forgot one small piece of the puzzle. The internal resistance of the battery itself also contributes to the voltage drop from the resting voltage to the 10.5 volts measured on the glow plug buss during glow plug activation. Add it all up, and you are sucking "juice" out of the battery like it is going out of style. Good thing they just need to be activated for about 15 seconds.

 

[CK25]

Hello,

sorry for pulling up this old thread but I have a 2005 CK 25 w/ 900+hrs with the same/similar issue; trouble starting in colder weather, where I am certain the glow plugs are not working or possibly the relay. I picked up a relay to swap but there are several on the firewall side of the engine bay that is the same 70amp relay type. I have swapped them around and it hasn't made a difference in the tractor starting in colder weather. If someone can point me to where the relay location is, it would be appreciated (and whether it is the Driver side or Engine Side)? thanks!