Cleaning out a unused conduit

[aczlan]

I have a 4" PVC conduit which is about 180 feet long. One end is inside (near some telecom/networking equipment) and the other end is outside next to a power pole. When it was installed (5 years ago) there was ductape placed over the outside end. The NY weather has taken care of that and it is now open. I would like to run several wires (4x CAT6 and 2x RG6) to replace the current wireless network with a wired one.

My plan is to cut the pipe below grade and install a tee, cap the top (above grade) and go from the side of the tee into the house with conduit and I would prefer not to have to use direct burial rated CAT6.

What is the best way to clean out this pipe?

Thanks

Aaron Z

 

[Willl]

4" ?, I'd blast it with the 'largest' volume of dry air I could achieve and thread it.

Done deal.

 

[aczlan]

4" ?, I'd blast it with the 'largest' volume of dry air I could achieve and thread it.
Done deal.

I was thinking something like a leaf blower for a day or so, then blow a shopping bag tied to a pull string down the pipe.

Aaron Z

 

[MikeInEburg]

I know you didn't ask, but I just can't help myself.
From 20+ years experience:
1. You REALLY should use duct-rated cable in any underground pipe. Every conduit fills with water and PVC jacketed cable is not designed to prevent water ingress.
2. At that distance, consider larger coax as you're right at the edge of RG6 recommended drop length. RG11 or 500 flex would be much better.
3. While Cat6 will work, it is really overkill for your needs, and in some situations can be a detriment. PE89 would be more appropriate. See Item #1 above...
Good luck!
Mike

 

[eepete]

I had a 3" pipe about 160 feet going outside. Went to use it 2 years later, it was full of water and had settled in one spot so there was a low spot on it. I think I had a leak at the cap on the outside end.

Used a shop vac to pull the water out. Had to duct tape a garden hose to the nozzle to get down enough into the pipe. Then I put a small 12V fan on and left it for a week or so to dry it out (blowing inside air to the outside).

If by clean you mean remove mud, use a hose and work the outside end with a fish tape, then dry it.

A few years ago, I put a piece of CAT5 insulation in a glass of water and left it there for a few months (replacing the water a time or two). Insulation was OK. This was normal (non plenum) wire. I think the wire can take damp, but not "under water".

I've got a 3/4 water line for the tractor garage, 5 CAT5s, two video coaxes for the security cameras, 12 VDC power for them, an 18 gauge pair wire for the house paging system, another for the door sensor. Only been in about 8 months but no problems so far.

I think any conduit in the ground with an end open gets a little condensation in it.

Good luck! I hate wireless (well, I hate batteries) so I'm in favor of any hardware installation.

Pete

EDIT: saw Mike's post- yeah, the big question is how does non plenum CAT5 do in conduit with moisture around it. All coax I run is Quad shield RG6. For base-band video, it's fine even at 200 foot runs. FWIW, I also just ran CAT5 everywhere, no CAT6.

 

[jlsmith]

I installed fiber for years and the way we did it is to take a nurf ball alittle larger than the pipe. Tie a verrylight sting to it and stuff it in the pipe get a air compressor with high volume and let it fly. Just a wor of advice stay clear of the other end cuz what ever is n the pipe is coming out. Now tie a bigger rope to the string pull it threw and now ur ready to pull cable. Hope this helped.

 

[aczlan]

Good luck! I hate wireless (well, I hate batteries) so I'm in favor of any hardware installation.

This link is currently run with a pair of 3com POE access points, but pingtimes are too slow for remote desktop and netflix streaming video.

EDIT: saw Mike's post- yeah, the big question is how does non plenum CAT5 do in conduit with moisture around it. All coax I run is Quad shield RG6. For base-band video, it's fine even at 200 foot runs. FWIW, I also just ran CAT5 everywhere, no CAT6.

This RG6 is for cable TV. That is about the lendth of the runs inside the building we are running from, so my main worry is running in the conduit.

I have debated CAT5E vs CAT6, but most of what I have found has been 24ga CAT5e and 23ga CAT6. I would prefer the larger wires for this length of a run (2 CAT6 lines and a RG6 line going 214' to one house and the others going 283' to the other.

The plan is to run Ethernet one one CAT6 cable and phone on the other (yes, I could run them both on one cable, but if I pull 2 cables, I have a "backup" cable in case something happens).

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

I know you didn't ask, but I just can't help myself.
From 20+ years experience:

Thanks for sharing.

1. You REALLY should use duct-rated cable in any underground pipe. Every conduit fills with water and PVC jacketed cable is not designed to prevent water ingress.

By duct rated, do you mean plenum rated cable?

2. At that distance, consider larger coax as you're right at the edge of RG6 recommended drop length. RG11 or 500 flex would be much better.

I was under the impression that RG6 was good for 1000 feet without needing a signal booster (perhaps more for cable tv which is what this will be running).

3. While Cat6 will work, it is really overkill for your needs, and in some situations can be a detriment. PE89 would be more appropriate. See Item #1 above...

What is the downside (other than cost) to running CAT6 vs CAT5e?
The main reason I am looking at CAT6 is to get 23ga wire. At 283 feet for the long run, I will need all the help I can get. Yes, can put a switch in at 200ish feet (and I may end up doing that) but these three buildings are electrically separate (separate transformers for 2 of the 3, separate meters for all), and I would like to keep them as separate as possible.

On PE89 cable, will that work for Ethernet cable?

Good luck!
Mike

Thanks, I will need it

Aaron Z

 

[Willl]

1. You REALLY should use duct-rated cable in any underground pipe. Every conduit fills with water

This quote should be emphasized on 'ALL' underground conduit burial threads. Ya just can't get away from the 'inevitably'.

 

[hr3]

I was thinking something like a leaf blower for a day or so, then blow a shopping bag tied to a pull string down the pipe.

Aaron Z

This should work but I don't think you need to wait a day to try to dry it,, If there is water in it,, there will always be water in it. Just make sure you blow from the house side out so that the water ends up outside not in,,

One thing I don't understand is the T you want to install ???

 

[aczlan]

One thing I don't understand is the T you want to install ???

The conduit ends up next to the power pole (~15 feet from the house). I want to run another (smaller) conduit from that point to the house so that this is all underground.

Aaron Z

 

[MikeInEburg]

By duct rated, do you mean plenum rated cable?

Duct cable is the black-jacketed cable that you see used by telcos. The outer jacket is tough and innerds are normally flooded with "goo" that limits how much water will travel inside the jacket should the jacket be knicked. Plenum simply means that the smoke caused when the outer jacket burns isn't toxic - hence used in plenum (indoor air handling) environments. You can easily get Cat5 duct cable - it's not outrageously expensive.

I was under the impression that RG6 was good for 1000 feet without needing a signal booster (perhaps more for cable tv which is what this will be running).

When used for television (modulated signal) RG6 loses roughly 6 dB of signal strength per 100 feet of cable at 900 MHz (channel 141). This loss can be overcome by an amplifier with "tilt" (amplifying high frequency more than low frequency). Much depends on your starting signal levels. Most cable companies use 200' as their max when using RG6 as drop - connecting their trunk line to the interface on the house. It's simply something that you may need to address. Water ingress is a killer for coax - a small cut in the jacket can haunt you. Quad shield isn't the "right" answer. Duct rated cable is. FYI - when used for baseband video (Closed circuit TV camera, etc) - 1000 feet is no problem.

What is the downside (other than cost) to running CAT6 vs CAT5e?
The main reason I am looking at CAT6 is to get 23ga wire. At 283 feet for the long run, I will need all the help I can get. Yes, can put a switch in at 200ish feet (and I may end up doing that) but these three buildings are electrically separate (separate transformers for 2 of the 3, separate meters for all), and I would like to keep them as separate as possible.

On PE89 cable, will that work for Ethernet cable?

Here is where I'll say the "right" way and then the "realistic" way.

The right way is to link two buildings with a piece of optical fiber. It is lightning PROOF (just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?) and has significantly longer distance limits. The standards for Ethernet say that you don't use copper to extend Ethernet outside of a building.

By the specs, the maximum length of Cat5 for Ethernet is 90 meters (280' +/-) plus 10 meters of patch cords. We've run it much farther without trouble. Some Ethernet switches will "push" the signal better than others.

Here is an example of where cat6 may be worse than cat5. Because the individual pairs of cat6 are more tightly twisted than cat5, it takes longer individual conductors to make 10 feet of cat6 vs cat5. Imagine untwisting the pairs of 10 feet of both cat6 and cat5. The cat6 untwisted conductors would be longer than the cat5 - hence your switch needs to "push" the signal farther.

On PE89 cable, will that work for Ethernet cable?

By the spec? No. In reality, it is what I use to connect my office in the garage to the house some 200' away (don't tell anyone). But there is no guarantee that it would work for you.

If I were in your shoes, I'd invest in a box of cat5 duct and some primary lightning protectors (life safety is important!) and be happy. I don't think you'll need a switch in the middle.

Good luck!
Mike

 

[dcyrilc]

The conduit ends up next to the power pole (~15 feet from the house). I want to run another (smaller) conduit from that point to the house so that this is all underground.

Aaron Z

The proper way to do this is to put a burial type junction box over the conduit at the pole. You then run a second conduit from the junction box to the house.

 

[dcyrilc]

Duct cable is the black-jacketed cable that you see used by telcos. The outer jacket is tough and innerds are normally flooded with "goo" that limits how much water will travel inside the jacket should the jacket be knicked. Plenum simply means that the smoke caused when the outer jacket burns isn't toxic - hence used in plenum (indoor air handling) environments. You can easily get Cat5 duct cable - it's not outrageously expensive.



When used for television (modulated signal) RG6 loses roughly 6 dB of signal strength per 100 feet of cable at 900 MHz (channel 141). This loss can be overcome by an amplifier with "tilt" (amplifying high frequency more than low frequency). Much depends on your starting signal levels. Most cable companies use 200' as their max when using RG6 as drop - connecting their trunk line to the interface on the house. It's simply something that you may need to address. Water ingress is a killer for coax - a small cut in the jacket can haunt you. Quad shield isn't the "right" answer. Duct rated cable is. FYI - when used for baseband video (Closed circuit TV camera, etc) - 1000 feet is no problem.

When I built my system, I could never get decent video at 800-1000 feet with RG-6. I even tried an amplifier on the receving end. It was better, but never great. I finally switched to fiber.:thumbsup: Never have looked back. Too many benifits including the electrical isolation between buildings.

Here is where I'll say the "right" way and then the "realistic" way.

The right way is to link two buildings with a piece of optical fiber. It is lightning PROOF (just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?) and has significantly longer distance limits. The standards for Ethernet say that you don't use copper to extend Ethernet outside of a building.

By the specs, the maximum length of Cat5 for Ethernet is 90 meters (280' +/-) plus 10 meters of patch cords. We've run it much farther without trouble. Some Ethernet switches will "push" the signal better than others.

Here is an example of where cat6 may be worse than cat5. Because the individual pairs of cat6 are more tightly twisted than cat5, it takes longer individual conductors to make 10 feet of cat6 vs cat5. Imagine untwisting the pairs of 10 feet of both cat6 and cat5. The cat6 untwisted conductors would be longer than the cat5 - hence your switch needs to "push" the signal farther.



By the spec? No. In reality, it is what I use to connect my office in the garage to the house some 200' away (don't tell anyone). But there is no guarantee that it would work for you.

If I were in your shoes, I'd invest in a box of cat5 duct and some primary lightning protectors (life safety is important!) and be happy. I don't think you'll need a switch in the middle.

Good luck!
Mike

Well said Mike.

 

[eepete]

I like what Mike says. Always a battle between "right" and "realistic" except in matters of life safety and lightning.

I just use the quad shield everywhere so I only have 1 type of cable to buy. The two runs out to the tractor garage come into the house at go into a little circuit board I did. It has a small solid state protector for both the ground and center conductor (for if things get tickled, so stuff doesn't get fried) and also has screw terminals where I bring out wires and take them into a standard telco gas tube protector (for if things get womped, so stuff doesn't burn the house down). Again, this is baseband video (below 20 MHz bandwidth) not RF. For RF you should at least use the standard F connector grounding device at the house.

The CAT5 length spec for 1G bps is what Mike says. My longest runs are 160 feet. I have a fancy tester and it was very happy with that. Just for grins, I connected two runs together (about 320 feet) and it all worked, but often you can push the specs (just not always). Cable cost are not too different, you could pull on of each ? If I had to pick one because I was buying special filled/jacket cable, I'd go with the CAT5 (based on your run lengths).

Sounds like I'm very wrong on "normal" CAT5 in buried conduit. If I pull more, I'll get the black jacketed/filled stuff. Kinda like the "how far can you push a spec"- I've just been lucky so far. I did run a cable in a conduit for a weather station, used real Telco filled cable for that.

Finally, on all the wires I ran to the tractor garage they go through gas tube protectors when they come into the house. Then, before they go into the automation or PBX they go to solid state protection with either small fuses or self resetting fuses. There are no wires that come into the house that do not have either gas tubes or big honking MOVs (for AC stuff like the outside lighting) on them. If I need Ethernet in the tractor garage, I'll put a wireless hub there that's "floating at the end of the cable" and powered by my 12 volt feed to the garage and connect wirelessly, not a direct plug in of the CAT5 cable.

 

[k0ua]

The right way is to link two buildings with a piece of optical fiber. It is lightning PROOF (just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?) and has significantly longer distance limits. The standards for Ethernet say that you don't use copper to extend Ethernet outside of a building.

+1 on this.. I do this for a living all day every day, Fiber is the way to go.
its not that expensive. you will need either data switches at each end with SFP modules in them or you can use something like Transition Networks media converters at each end to convert Multimode fiber to ethernet copper.
Here are some caveats. ALL underground conduits are full of water from condensate, suck or blow it out if you like, it will fill again, matter of time.
the cat5e duct cable is one way to do it. but it invites lightning. ALL underground copper cables are prone to lightning. proper arrestors and grounding techniques must be used, from a personal protection standpoint and protection of the equipment. If you dont, use a duct cable, it will fail, matter of time for the water to ingress into the "porous" PVC cable.. with the cost of the lightning protection and the cat5e duct cable, you are pretty close to the fiber price. the fiber itself is cheap, but there is the splicing ends on it and then the media converters or SFP modules on the data switches.
Fiber has no lightning problems, I would still use a duct type fiber since it will be laying in water for a long long time. If you need help with part numbers or ideas PM me. Just my thoughts.
James K0UA

 

[dcyrilc]

+1 on this.. I do this for a living all day every day, Fiber is the way to go.
its not that expensive. you will need either data switches at each end with SFP modules in them or you can use something like Transition Networks media converters at each end to convert Multimode fiber to ethernet copper.
Here are some caveats. ALL underground conduits are full of water from condensate, suck or blow it out if you like, it will fill again, matter of time.
the cat5e duct cable is one way to do it. but it invites lightning. ALL underground copper cables are prone to lightning. proper arrestors and grounding techniques must be used, from a personal protection standpoint and protection of the equipment. If you dont, use a duct cable, it will fail, matter of time for the water to ingress into the "porous" PVC cable.. with the cost of the lightning protection and the cat5e duct cable, you are pretty close to the fiber price. the fiber itself is cheap, but there is the splicing ends on it and then the media converters or SFP modules on the data switches.
Fiber has no lightning problems, I would still use a duct type fiber since it will be laying in water for a long long time. If you need help with part numbers or ideas PM me. Just my thoughts.
James K0UA

James,
Have you ever used any of the terminations with index matching gel? They are starting to get pretty good now. We are using the Corning at work and have yet to have anyone able to match them with an epoxy-polish connection. At the farm, I'm using the Tyco/Amp connectors. Used to be able to find them on Ebay for under $1/each. Now everyone wants nearly full price.

 

[k0ua]

James,
Have you ever used any of the terminations with index matching gel? They are starting to get pretty good now. We are using the Corning at work and have yet to have anyone able to match them with an epoxy-polish connection. At the farm, I'm using the Tyco/Amp connectors. Used to be able to find them on Ebay for under $1/each. Now everyone wants nearly full price.

Havent used them but have seen them. I am out of the field now, and doing engineering. I figure the parts for the job and the labor needed, and the electronics needed. In the old days I used to put on the epoxy polished ST ends a lot, then when I came to Windstream they always used fusion splicers, I have seen these new ends, but I have no experience with them, but if they are good quality and low loss, it would be a good thing, lots cheaper than a fusion splicer:laughing: If you recommend them you might post some links to help the OP if he is interested in going the fiber route.

 

[aczlan]

Here is where I'll say the "right" way and then the "realistic" way.
The right way is to link two buildings with a piece of optical fiber. It is lightning PROOF (just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?) and has significantly longer distance limits. The standards for Ethernet say that you don't use copper to extend Ethernet outside of a building.

While I would like to go with fiber, I have to run a phone line, a cable TV line and a data line to each house. I dont know that the budget ($2-400) will allow for fiber to do all of that, and if I run one copper line, I may as well run all copper lines.

Here is an example of where cat6 may be worse than cat5. Because the individual pairs of cat6 are more tightly twisted than cat5, it takes longer individual conductors to make 10 feet of cat6 vs cat5. Imagine untwisting the pairs of 10 feet of both cat6 and cat5. The cat6 untwisted conductors would be longer than the cat5 - hence your switch needs to "push" the signal farther.

Good to know

If I were in your shoes, I'd invest in a box of cat5 duct and some primary lightning protectors (life safety is important!) and be happy. I don't think you'll need a switch in the middle.

That is the way that I am leaning. I can terminate and patch CAT5 myself, fiber would require having someone come out and terminate it.
Any recommendations of makes and models of lightening protectors?

Thanks

Aaron Z

 

[dcyrilc]

Havent used them but have seen them. I am out of the field now, and doing engineering. I figure the parts for the job and the labor needed, and the electronics needed. In the old days I used to put on the epoxy polished ST ends a lot, then when I came to Windstream they always used fusion splicers, I have seen these new ends, but I have no experience with them, but if they are good quality and low loss, it would be a good thing, lots cheaper than a fusion splicer:laughing: If you recommend them you might post some links to help the OP if he is interested in going the fiber route.

I like them, but as you know the cost of the tools doesn't really make it practical for a one time shot with only a couple of terminations. For me, by the time I'm done I'll have over 200 terminations in 9 different patch panels. I have a 24 strand cable from my electronics room out to a main patch cabinet in the center of the ranch and a 12 strand cable from there to each building as well as 6 strand cables to each security camera location. All OCC tight-tube PVC jacketed and water blocked cable rated for underground use in conduit.

Aczlan,
I can post links if you're interested. Fiber has a little bit of a learning curve, but not bad. It is doable by a capable homeowner if they are willing to try.

I'm now a certified installer, but that's only because the city (my employer) sent me to school to get the certification. I terminated lots of fiber long before I got the paper.