kensfarm
Veteran Member
Some counties require you to have a permit if you are clearing off 5000 or more sq/ft of land.
Clearing steep, wooded hillsides, PT 1850 or what?
- Thread starter MikeOConnor
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MikeOConnor
Silver Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 172
- Location
- Western Wisconsin
- Tractor
- Two Power-Trac 1850s (preferred for mowing and grapple-bucket clearing type work on really steep hills). Kubota M680 for snowblowing, grading, bucket.
Back again. Here are some replies to the issues that have come up in the last few posts.
Regarding the county-permit thing -- not an issue, partly because my county doesn't care, and partly because I'm not clearing the land, I'm thinning. We leave about enough trees to shade 50% of the land, but open up the other 50%. So at the end, i'm winding up with a few really big oak trees per acre instead of a bajillion little tiny trees. The insane part is that the oak trees never get harvested, which drives the professional foresters nuts when they talk to us. But that's the way Maw Nature had it before we got here and that's the way we'll leave it when Marcie and I kick off. Yep, this is a **long** project. We're hoping to have a good start at it, but it'll take 100 years to really get things right.
Regarding grazing with buffalo -- yep, that's a strategy that we've contemplated. We may do it some time, but that project will require repairing/installing about 5 miles of fences. On those same steep slopes. Another good job for the Mystery Device (although I'm starting to get confirmation that my Power-Trac plan is a good one).
Regarding the dozer -- yep, folks have it right. The dozer would set us back because it would disturb the ground. That's how the trouble got started -- loggers around here use dozers to skid logs off these steep slopes, which "plowed up" the ground and let the weeds take hold.
Regarding tracks on a skid-steer -- that's something I thought would work too, but I ran one up the hillside a couple weeks ago and it's just not gonna work on anything near the slopes I've got -- it pretty much crapped out at around 15-20 degrees.
Regarding the idea of letting the land return to normal on it's own -- unfortunately, once the exotic invaders get established they overwhelm the native stuff. Birch, sumac, aspen, buckthorn and the like are all really pretty but they don't "belong" here and have to be removed in order to give the native stuff a chance to reestablish itself. Once the native plants and trees are rockin' they can keep the invaders out, but we gotta give 'em a little help to get started.
Thanks Bob for the Ventrac scoop. That's amazing that you can hop around like that with only 3-4 inches of ground clearance. Makes me a lot more comfortable that the PT 1850 might just be the machine for me.
I think I'm gonna take this thread over to the PT forum and see what those folks think of my idea. Thanks for the info, lads.
Regarding the county-permit thing -- not an issue, partly because my county doesn't care, and partly because I'm not clearing the land, I'm thinning. We leave about enough trees to shade 50% of the land, but open up the other 50%. So at the end, i'm winding up with a few really big oak trees per acre instead of a bajillion little tiny trees. The insane part is that the oak trees never get harvested, which drives the professional foresters nuts when they talk to us. But that's the way Maw Nature had it before we got here and that's the way we'll leave it when Marcie and I kick off. Yep, this is a **long** project. We're hoping to have a good start at it, but it'll take 100 years to really get things right.
Regarding grazing with buffalo -- yep, that's a strategy that we've contemplated. We may do it some time, but that project will require repairing/installing about 5 miles of fences. On those same steep slopes. Another good job for the Mystery Device (although I'm starting to get confirmation that my Power-Trac plan is a good one).
Regarding the dozer -- yep, folks have it right. The dozer would set us back because it would disturb the ground. That's how the trouble got started -- loggers around here use dozers to skid logs off these steep slopes, which "plowed up" the ground and let the weeds take hold.
Regarding tracks on a skid-steer -- that's something I thought would work too, but I ran one up the hillside a couple weeks ago and it's just not gonna work on anything near the slopes I've got -- it pretty much crapped out at around 15-20 degrees.
Regarding the idea of letting the land return to normal on it's own -- unfortunately, once the exotic invaders get established they overwhelm the native stuff. Birch, sumac, aspen, buckthorn and the like are all really pretty but they don't "belong" here and have to be removed in order to give the native stuff a chance to reestablish itself. Once the native plants and trees are rockin' they can keep the invaders out, but we gotta give 'em a little help to get started.
Thanks Bob for the Ventrac scoop. That's amazing that you can hop around like that with only 3-4 inches of ground clearance. Makes me a lot more comfortable that the PT 1850 might just be the machine for me.
I think I'm gonna take this thread over to the PT forum and see what those folks think of my idea. Thanks for the info, lads.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
<font color="red"> Thanks Bob for the Ventrac scoop. That's amazing that you can hop around like that with only 3-4 inches of ground clearance. Makes me a lot more comfortable that the PT 1850 might just be the machine for me.
</font>
Mike, one more interesting thing about the climbing abilities on uneven ground of the articulated/oscillating machines. I have one hill that is tall (by northern Indiana standards, not by your standards) with a narrow path on part of it. I've climbed it successfully with my CUTs going straight up several times. But I've also gotten stuck on that slope with a CUT because there is a spot where the ground is rough. In that spot, I have, on several occasions ended up with 3 wheels on the ground, and in a position where I don't have enough traction to climb because the balance point of the tractor switches from moment to moment. (it seems worse with a longer wheelbase tractor than a short wheelbase machine) So on several occasions I have backed down from that point and gone the "long way" around to get back up to the house. I'd say my success rate of climbing that one hill, in an effort to save about 1 minute of time, is only about 60%. So much of the time when I try to save time I spend more time just trying to get back up to the house!
Now when I climb that with the Ventrac, not only does it just scoot right up the slope, it does so while powering the mower deck and has even done it powering the mower deck and pulling a trailer!!! Like I said before, they are just a different animal. The ONLY one time I could not get up there was after several days of heavy rain and the turf tires of the Ventrac started spinning and took all the turf off of one area exposing the clay (which is still there and I'm having a heck of a time getting any grass to do anything there). The tires of the Ventrac just packed with clay and turned into "slicks" preventing any chance of climbing that hill.
The other thing that you will find with the PT1850 is that the articulated machines are AMAZINGLY soft on the turf. This weekend I had my NH in 4wd while moving some stuff and made a few turns and tore the turf. I've had so much in the front scoop of the Ventrac that the rear end was light and never came close to trearing the turf the way a CUT can do it. With the flexible frame and the fact that the rear tires follow the same path as the front tires, tearing turf is very difficult to do.
</font>
Mike, one more interesting thing about the climbing abilities on uneven ground of the articulated/oscillating machines. I have one hill that is tall (by northern Indiana standards, not by your standards) with a narrow path on part of it. I've climbed it successfully with my CUTs going straight up several times. But I've also gotten stuck on that slope with a CUT because there is a spot where the ground is rough. In that spot, I have, on several occasions ended up with 3 wheels on the ground, and in a position where I don't have enough traction to climb because the balance point of the tractor switches from moment to moment. (it seems worse with a longer wheelbase tractor than a short wheelbase machine) So on several occasions I have backed down from that point and gone the "long way" around to get back up to the house. I'd say my success rate of climbing that one hill, in an effort to save about 1 minute of time, is only about 60%. So much of the time when I try to save time I spend more time just trying to get back up to the house!
Now when I climb that with the Ventrac, not only does it just scoot right up the slope, it does so while powering the mower deck and has even done it powering the mower deck and pulling a trailer!!! Like I said before, they are just a different animal. The ONLY one time I could not get up there was after several days of heavy rain and the turf tires of the Ventrac started spinning and took all the turf off of one area exposing the clay (which is still there and I'm having a heck of a time getting any grass to do anything there). The tires of the Ventrac just packed with clay and turned into "slicks" preventing any chance of climbing that hill.
The other thing that you will find with the PT1850 is that the articulated machines are AMAZINGLY soft on the turf. This weekend I had my NH in 4wd while moving some stuff and made a few turns and tore the turf. I've had so much in the front scoop of the Ventrac that the rear end was light and never came close to trearing the turf the way a CUT can do it. With the flexible frame and the fact that the rear tires follow the same path as the front tires, tearing turf is very difficult to do.
Varmintmist
Platinum Member
How about this:
Chainsaw, to girdle and the cut.
Fire to take care of the created brush.
Goats in the weedy areas for mowing. They will eat anything and the invasive plants will be kept down. Then move them in a year or two to another area. Goat fence is a whole lot cheaper than buffalo fence.
I dont think there is a "easy" way to do this. It is going to be you and your two buddies, Lefty and Right Hand for this stuff.
Chainsaw, to girdle and the cut.
Fire to take care of the created brush.
Goats in the weedy areas for mowing. They will eat anything and the invasive plants will be kept down. Then move them in a year or two to another area. Goat fence is a whole lot cheaper than buffalo fence.
I dont think there is a "easy" way to do this. It is going to be you and your two buddies, Lefty and Right Hand for this stuff.
MarkV
Super Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2000
- Messages
- 5,636
- Location
- Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
- Tractor
- 1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39
That sure is a beautiful piece of property and a very big goal you are striving for Mike. You should also do a search for some of the European specialty tractors that work vineyards and hill side farming. In parts of Europe your hills would be considered fields and they have developed specialty equipment for the terrain.
Not to be a pessimist but with track equipment eliminated from the list I just can’t imagine what is going to mow, use a tree shear and skid mature trees on slopes that are approaching 100% grade. The PT 1850 looks to be an impressive slope mower with plenty of horse power, low center of gravity and at just under 4k lbs with the dual tires has a good amount of weight. I still have to wonder what happens when you hit that hidden stump on the high side when traversing a 40 degree slope or shearing an 8” tree that is trying to fall down hill and take you with it. It looks to be scary work even on a dozer to me.
It is obvious you are doing a great deal of research so I’ll ask you if some damage now to rid the area of unwanted vegetation would be a faster and safer way to reach a reclamation that’s anticipated to take decades to complete anyway? I am visualizing some form of low impact logging/clearing that would require a limited number of access roads and the use of a winch on a dozer to minimize where equipment would have to damage the natural terrain. When an area is completed the road is graded back to a more natural slope and reseeded with native plants. There are specialty logging companies that work sensitive areas though I am sure they would be difficult to find and costly. I am just having a real hard time seeing any rubber tired equipment being effective and timely on slopes that steep for heavy work.
It is a fascinating project and I sure hope you will stick around on the forum to give us up dates as the project progresses. Be safe and best of luck with your project.
MarkV
Not to be a pessimist but with track equipment eliminated from the list I just can’t imagine what is going to mow, use a tree shear and skid mature trees on slopes that are approaching 100% grade. The PT 1850 looks to be an impressive slope mower with plenty of horse power, low center of gravity and at just under 4k lbs with the dual tires has a good amount of weight. I still have to wonder what happens when you hit that hidden stump on the high side when traversing a 40 degree slope or shearing an 8” tree that is trying to fall down hill and take you with it. It looks to be scary work even on a dozer to me.
It is obvious you are doing a great deal of research so I’ll ask you if some damage now to rid the area of unwanted vegetation would be a faster and safer way to reach a reclamation that’s anticipated to take decades to complete anyway? I am visualizing some form of low impact logging/clearing that would require a limited number of access roads and the use of a winch on a dozer to minimize where equipment would have to damage the natural terrain. When an area is completed the road is graded back to a more natural slope and reseeded with native plants. There are specialty logging companies that work sensitive areas though I am sure they would be difficult to find and costly. I am just having a real hard time seeing any rubber tired equipment being effective and timely on slopes that steep for heavy work.
It is a fascinating project and I sure hope you will stick around on the forum to give us up dates as the project progresses. Be safe and best of luck with your project.
MarkV
gabby
Gold Member
Have you thought about killin' em with aerial herbicide or herbicide injections? I'm still afraid someBODY might get killed trying to work those slopes with power equipment. Remedy herbicide kills bushes and briars but spares the grass.
A guy not too far from here was determined to have an 18-hole public golf course, and he got it built but nearly died when he flipped his backhoe into a pond and got pinned under it. Somehow, some golfers who saw it happen got the backhoe off of him before he drowned, but he was in a coma for several days.
Be careful good buddy,
Gabby
A guy not too far from here was determined to have an 18-hole public golf course, and he got it built but nearly died when he flipped his backhoe into a pond and got pinned under it. Somehow, some golfers who saw it happen got the backhoe off of him before he drowned, but he was in a coma for several days.
Be careful good buddy,
Gabby
How about something like this? http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/view_catalog_page.asp?id=1887
I would use the Imazapyr. This would allow you to be selective about what gets killed. Tordon kills any trees or shrubs with roots in the area. If you are after killing all trees in the area Velpar would work too. Just spray on the ground in a grid pattern.
I would use the Imazapyr. This would allow you to be selective about what gets killed. Tordon kills any trees or shrubs with roots in the area. If you are after killing all trees in the area Velpar would work too. Just spray on the ground in a grid pattern.
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MikeOConnor
Silver Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 172
- Location
- Western Wisconsin
- Tractor
- Two Power-Trac 1850s (preferred for mowing and grapple-bucket clearing type work on really steep hills). Kubota M680 for snowblowing, grading, bucket.
i thought i'd post a followup message to this thread, just to let folks know how things all turned out. i headed over to the PT forum and confirmed my theory that the 1850 was gonna be the machine for me and the new Power-Trac 1850 showed up last Saturday. so far i'm just as tickled as a fella can be.
Marcie posted a couple entries in her blog that show off the new toy and several "getting to know the machine" projects.
the first entry that you may find interesting is about "Mike's got his new toy" and features a picture of me running up one of our "medium" slopes. the slope on this hill looks to be around 25-30 degrees and i've got to say, the PT is just plain bored running around up there. solid as a rock -- the tilt seat makes a huge difference in how comfortable you feel. way way WAY more stable than the tractor. here's the link;
http://prairie.haven.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=65
i was clearing slash that loggers had left on the hillside a few years ago. just whipped up on that project -- took about 2 hours to clear off about an acre of hillside and move all the slash down to the flat where we'll burn it this spring.
then, we moved on to trying out the machine on brush clearing. this project was done "on the flat" to get a feel for the mower, the tree shear and the grapple bucket. here's the link to Marcie's blog entry;
http://prairie.haven.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=66
the mower and the grapple bucket made pretty short work of this acre of brush and small trees, and i'm pretty sure the PT will do equally well on the steep side-hills. i'd say that the only disappointment was with the tree shear -- which turns out to be a little too wimpy for my needs. but hey, it provided another chance to unlimber Mr. Chainsaw.
so, all in all, i'm feeling pretty perky. i've got about a month of slash-clearing in front of me -- but once that's done i'll be moving on to real hard-core side-hill clearing and i'll post a followup to the forum to let you know how things go.
Marcie posted a couple entries in her blog that show off the new toy and several "getting to know the machine" projects.
the first entry that you may find interesting is about "Mike's got his new toy" and features a picture of me running up one of our "medium" slopes. the slope on this hill looks to be around 25-30 degrees and i've got to say, the PT is just plain bored running around up there. solid as a rock -- the tilt seat makes a huge difference in how comfortable you feel. way way WAY more stable than the tractor. here's the link;
http://prairie.haven.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=65
i was clearing slash that loggers had left on the hillside a few years ago. just whipped up on that project -- took about 2 hours to clear off about an acre of hillside and move all the slash down to the flat where we'll burn it this spring.
then, we moved on to trying out the machine on brush clearing. this project was done "on the flat" to get a feel for the mower, the tree shear and the grapple bucket. here's the link to Marcie's blog entry;
http://prairie.haven.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=66
the mower and the grapple bucket made pretty short work of this acre of brush and small trees, and i'm pretty sure the PT will do equally well on the steep side-hills. i'd say that the only disappointment was with the tree shear -- which turns out to be a little too wimpy for my needs. but hey, it provided another chance to unlimber Mr. Chainsaw.
so, all in all, i'm feeling pretty perky. i've got about a month of slash-clearing in front of me -- but once that's done i'll be moving on to real hard-core side-hill clearing and i'll post a followup to the forum to let you know how things go.
Henro
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2003
- Messages
- 4,982
- Location
- Few miles north of Pgh, PA
- Tractor
- Kubota B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini EX
Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to post the follow up message and links. Sure looks good. You probably got the best machine possible (with tires... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).
I can't tell you how many times I have though of your desire to work on really steep slopes (45 degrees). And each time I have concluded you might cross one, but probably will not get any useful work done on one...
You sure seem to have the machine to prove that conclusion wrong. Do keep us updated. Great job you are doing there...
Thanks for taking the time to post the follow up message and links. Sure looks good. You probably got the best machine possible (with tires... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).
I can't tell you how many times I have though of your desire to work on really steep slopes (45 degrees). And each time I have concluded you might cross one, but probably will not get any useful work done on one...
You sure seem to have the machine to prove that conclusion wrong. Do keep us updated. Great job you are doing there...
