Cold start failure

[Looking4new]

I know of a fellow that pounded the ether to a 318 detroit engine that was sitting in a warm shop.....10 minutes later he asked me why the motor wouldn't turn over....Ether locked...Get the big 3/4 drive socket on a 5' bar and start turning the engine over by HAND with the stop valve open for about an hour or so, then and only then try to start it without ether. I don't think he ever used ether again.

 

[skyhook]

Get one of them large battery chargers, the kind with wheels and a 400+ amp boost on them.
When you turn on your glow plugs, your robbing vital power from an almost frozen battery (at these temps), you need that extra power to turn this machine over quickly when its that cold and your battery isn't doing this. Clamp on that big charger and watch it spin, she'll start then, I know.
Mine sits outside and in this type of ridiculously cold temps, it's what I do and use, I also have a battery blanket, starts every time, it may take a try or two, but she starts.
Air, fuel and a fast turning engine is all you need, the rest of the stuff just makes it more comfortable for the engine to give it that purrr when it does start.

 

[GManBart]

Air, fuel and a fast turning engine is all you need, the rest of the stuff just makes it more comfortable for the engine to give it that purrr when it does start.

That simply isn't true. If the block/heads/pistons/etc are cold, the heat from compression, which is required to make the engine start/run, is lost to those parts, making it take longer to start. If those parts are warmer, the engine will start quicker.

 

[Walkin Horse]

One thing I have done with my backhoe,is use a hair dryer to blow hot air in the air filter. I don't know if it really does any good. But that and a fast spinning battery/starter will get it going.

 

[CobyRupert]

One thing I have done with my backhoe,is use a hair dryer to blow hot air in the air filter. I don't know if it really does any good. But that and a fast spinning battery/starter will get it going.

My tractor doesn't have glow plugs, there's only an air intake heater (as far as I know). I have no idea how many watts it is. From the manual:

CAUTION: DO NOT use starting fluid in tractor equipped with an intake air heater system.
Tractors are equipped with an intake air heater system. An electric heating element (A) warms the intake air.

1.To activate cold weather starting device, turn key (B) to RUN position, push in and hold for:
◦ 10 or 15 seconds for temperatures above 0ºC (32ºF); 30 seconds for temperatures below 0ºC (32ºF)
2.Depress clutch pedal and turn key switch clockwise (C) to start engine.
3.If engine runs rough, activate the intake air heater system by holding in on the key switch (B) until engine runs smooth.

 

[skyhook]

That simply isn't true. If the block/heads/pistons/etc are cold, the heat from compression, which is required to make the engine start/run, is lost to those parts, making it take longer to start. If those parts are warmer, the engine will start quicker.

What part isn't true?
Are you saying a diesel engine out in the cold, with no preheat, will not start with what I've said above.
It will sputter and spit, granted, but it will start.

If the block/heads/pistons/etc are cold, the heat from compression, which is required to make the engine start/run, is lost to those parts

I disagree with this.

 

[Danny C]

We haven't heard from the OP since Sunday evening....Any progress mtaves? I can pretty much gurantee that your problem is gelled fuel which has likely clogged your fuel filters too. -30C is -22F. **** cold! Add some diesel fuel conditioner to your fuel (or Kerosene or even fuel oil if need be), heat your fuel tank if you can while doing so safely, change your fuel filters and add fresh fuel to them. You will likely have to bleed air from the fuel system to get her to start.

let us know how you make out.

 

[Walkin Horse]

My tractor doesn't have glow plugs, there's only an air intake heater (as far as I know). I have no idea how many watts it is. From the manual:

CAUTION: DO NOT use starting fluid in tractor equipped with an intake air heater system.
Tractors are equipped with an intake air heater system. An electric heating element (A) warms the intake air.



1.To activate cold weather starting device, turn key (B) to RUN position, push in and hold for:
◦ 10 or 15 seconds for temperatures above 0ºC (32ºF); 30 seconds for temperatures below 0ºC (32ºF)
2.Depress clutch pedal and turn key switch clockwise (C) to start engine.
3.If engine runs rough, activate the intake air heater system by holding in on the key switch (B) until engine runs smooth.

I guess I have made my own redneck intake heater.

 

[CobyRupert]

I disagree with this.

-Any reason why?

I guess I have made my own redneck intake heater.

Better to make a redneck diesel intake heater out of a hairdryer than it is to make a redneck hairdryer out of a diesel!

My tractor has been using a hairdryer too! Last cold mornings, the spring in the center mount SCV for the FEL was frozen, the wife's hair dryer which is in the barn for other defrost reasons (!!) was a quick shortcut.

 

[GManBart]

What part isn't true?
Are you saying a diesel engine out in the cold, with no preheat, will not start with what I've said above.
It will sputter and spit, granted, but it will start.


I disagree with this.

If you disagree with that, you don't know how diesel engines work.

You said: "Air, fuel and a fast turning engine is all you need, the rest of the stuff just makes it more comfortable for the engine to give it that purrr when it does start."

It has nothing to do with making the engine "more comfortable." If the engine parts are cold, they will cool the fuel/air mixture, making it take longer to start....it saps the heat created by compression, which is what is required for the engine to run. At the extremes, you crank the engine forever, and never get the intake heated up enough that compression will cause the fuel/air to light off. Heat the engine parts up, and the problem goes away, or gets much better.

 

[GManBart]

Diesels and cold weather from Wikipedia:

In cold weather, high speed diesel engines can be difficult to start because the mass of the cylinder block and cylinder head absorb the heat of compression, preventing ignition due to the higher surface-to-volume ratio. Pre-chambered engines make use of small electric heaters inside the pre-chambers called glowplugs, while the direct-injected engines have these glowplugs in the combustion chamber.[citation needed]

Many engines use resistive heaters in the intake manifold to warm the inlet air for starting, or until the engine reaches operating temperature. Engine block heaters (electric resistive heaters in the engine block) connected to the utility grid are used in cold climates when an engine is turned off for extended periods (more than an hour), to reduce startup time and engine wear.

 

[skyhook]

-Any reason why?

It's quite simple, " a COLD " diesel out in the elements, ( minus 20's etc), has no heat whatsoever to help in start up. If they have a good fuel supply, air and a good cranking power, she'll start. ( believe me, I know, been there, done that).
Some use either, if needed, but NO heat from anywhere else.
When I said " more comfortable" I should have said "run smoother" but i thought it was understood.
YES, a cold engine will remove heat from combustion start up, so what, it will start, may run rough, but it will smooth out on its own. Pre-heats etc, etc, just make it more "comfortable" ( LOL) for the engine.
Something like having an electric blanket in bed, but some of us can still sleep without one.
Sooo, the reason I disagreed with that statement is, "which is required to make the engine start/run,",
is as GmanBart put it, "That simply isn't true.".

 

[GManBart]

It's quite simple, " a COLD " diesel out in the elements, ( minus 20's etc), has no heat whatsoever to help in start up. If they have a good fuel supply, air and a good cranking power, she'll start. ( believe me, I know, been there, done that).
Some use either, if needed, but NO heat from anywhere else.
When I said " more comfortable" I should have said "run smoother" but i thought it was understood.
YES, a cold engine will remove heat from combustion start up, so what, it will start, may run rough, but it will smooth out on its own. Pre-heats etc, etc, just make it more "comfortable" ( LOL) for the engine.
Something like having an electric blanket in bed, but some of us can still sleep without one.
Sooo, the reason I disagreed with that statement is, "which is required to make the engine start/run,",
is as GmanBart put it, "That simply isn't true.".

Still wrong. Heat from compression is required for a diesel to run. Without it, they won't run....period. Having a cold block robs the heat from the fuel air mixture, making it harder (sometimes impossible) to get the engine running.

If it's cold enough, you can spin the engine at it's redline RPM, and it still won't start because the heat from compression isn't enough to overcome the heat loss to the block/heads, pistons/etc. So, your theory about needing nothing more than fuel, air, and rotation is an overly simplified generalization that isn't always true.

Pre-heat that same engine that won't start in super cold temperatures, and suddenly it will start.....funny how that works.

 

[Walkin Horse]

Does friction play apart in building up any heat?

 

[GreenheadRecycle]

It was said in one of the first posts. If everything is working properly synthetic oil is the key here. Granted WI doesn't get as cold as up nort (yea that's how we say it) It does get cold here. High temps predicted for tomorrow is 0. I've used Amsoil in everything and it all starts when it's plugged in.
Get some full synthetic oil in it, fuel anti-icer and plug her in.

 

[GManBart]

The wind thing does not affect an inanimate object, just skin. When a block of metal is 0 degrees in no wind it's still 0 degrees with a 30 mph wind on it.

Wind will remove heat that the block heater generates. The air will be colder than the engine, and remove heat from it as it passes over it. Heaters, air conditioning, etc are all proof of that concept.

 

[GreenheadRecycle]

GManBart you are correct. If a motor is not plugged in the wind will have no effect on a cold motor.
If it's plugged in the wind will lower the effectiveness of the block heater. Kinda like blowing on a hot cup of coffee.

 

[GManBart]

GManBart you are correct. If a motor is not plugged in the wind will have no effect on a cold motor.
If it's plugged in the wind will lower the effectiveness of the block heater. Kinda like blowing on a hot cup of coffee.

Exactly. I only said that because the OP says his has a block heater

 

[DarkBlack]

turbo diesels can be harder to start than non-turbo's in extreme cold due to the designed lower static compression ratio. At the low cranking rpm there isn't the added pressure and heat building packed cylinder that a spinning turbo provides.

 

[firemanmike69]

I think you have a bad glow plug, as I would think they should be on for longer than 5 seconds at -22 f below 0 the grid heater on my truck cycles for almost a minute