Cold start issues, which fluid needs a heater?

[TSO]

The last several days have been several degrees below zero, even down below - 15. The last two days I had cold starting issues with my Massey 1648. The engine would crank but I would get no fuel. The issue was easily resolved by pointing my torpedo heater at the right side of the engine for 5+ mins, near the fuel filter, fuel pump, metal fuel lines, and injector housing. By proxy the heat also would have made contact with the engine block on that side.

Now, I have never had cold start issues in the past. This last batch of fuel I use was off road diesel from my local station. I also used anti gel cetane boost like usual. So, I am doubtful that the fuel was bad, though it remains a possibility.

I'm going to call my dealer later today to ask what factory options Massey offers for warming the tractor, but based on this experience, where do you guys think my issue is? Is my oil too cold to fire the injectors? Or is my fuel delivery frozen somewhere not getting fuel to the injectors? I can't really point the heater at one of the fluid systems without getting heat to the other.

So, which fluid was too cold? Oil or fuel?

 

[GManBart]

If a heater did the trick in that short a timeframe, it sounds more like a fuel issue to me. If it was an oil issue, I think the engine would turn over much slower as well....was it about normal?

 

[TSO]

If a heater did the trick in that short a timeframe, it sounds more like a fuel issue to me. If it was an oil issue, I think the engine would turn over much slower as well....was it about normal?

Yeah she was cranking like usual ... Just clearly wasn't getting fuel. And once whatever issue was thawed, she started up just like normal. I'm sure you're right, it's most likely a fuel gel issue. (Just didn't want to assume)

Now I need to figure out where exactly the weak point is that would lead to freezing. Probably the hard fuel lines going to the injectors is my guess.

 

[Dave M7040]

I would be more suspicious of the low pressure part of the system. The lift pump which brings the fuel to the injection pump, the suction line, possible gauze/fine screen filter in the tank, the filter.
Once the injection system gets the fuel there is a lot of pressure to move slightly gelled fuel along whereas on the suction side of the lift pump it does not exert much energy to over come any restriction. Of course water in the fuel tank can bring everything to a halt as it settles at the bottom where the pick up is.
Take some fuel from the tank and put in it a bottle and leave it outside with the tractor. A quick look should give you some useful info.
Dave m7040

 

[GManBart]

I would also wonder about the fuel filter since the metal is so thin....I'd think it would take longer to get heat through the injector lines, etc because they're thicker...just a thought.

 

[TSO]

I would also wonder about the fuel filter since the metal is so thin....I'd think it would take longer to get heat through the injector lines, etc because they're thicker...just a thought.

Possibly ... I have about 100 hrs in that filter so changing it wouldn't hurt.

 

[GManBart]

Possibly ... I have about 100 hrs in that filter so changing it wouldn't hurt.

I wasn't thinking about it being plugged so much as being more susceptible to ice/gel problems since the thin metal would transfer the cold to the fuel very quickly and efficiently. That could also explain why the problem went away so quickly with a bit of heat. I'm wondering if Massey makes a fuel filter heater type kit (some brands have them).

I think something like this might be worthwhile if we keep having these crazy winters:
Model FH - Fuel Filter Heater

 

[Coyote machine]

Could depend on how/where it was sitting; if the lines/filter were exposed to wind the freezing effect could have been significant. Changing the filter out by itself could help track back to cause. The filter is meant to allow water to fall and keep particulate matter out. BUT, if the filter is water saturated from condensate freezing then fuel can't pass and you won't get her to start. I doubt it's bad fuel so much as the right conditions to make the filter impassible until heat was applied. JMHO.

 

[firemanmike69]

Possibly ... I have about 100 hrs in that filter so changing it wouldn't hurt.

Fuel "gelling" is when wax particles begin to fall out of solution usually in the fuel filter because that's where the greatest restriction is You can also have fuel icing which is when water in the fuel begins to freeze also usually in the filter You can treat the fuel with additives or by cutting with kerosene or both

 

[BlackOps]

same issue here - and just waiting for more outside warmth to try to start it -

 

[TSO]

Could depend on how/where it was sitting; if the lines/filter were exposed to wind the freezing effect could have been significant. Changing the filter out by itself could help track back to cause. The filter is meant to allow water to fall and keep particulate matter out. BUT, if the filter is water saturated from condensate freezing then fuel can't pass and you won't get her to start. I doubt it's bad fuel so much as the right conditions to make the filter impassible until heat was applied. JMHO.

She always sleeps in the barn. Now, the barn is unheated and the last few nights have been in the double digits negative, but no wind blows on my girl!

I didn't have a chance to call the dealership today, nor did I go outside to try to start her up or the fuel filter. Hopefully I will have time to do both tomorrow.

 

[grm61]

As far as the fuel goes, the price difference is not that much between offroad, and green, I don't put that many hours on mine, so I make sure my supply is deleted at winter time, and buy green from a station that sells a lot of it to make sure I am getting winter diesel, then I treat it with Hows lubricator (Cheap and effective).

You could have leftover summer red if they don't sell alot of it???:confused3:

 

[MHarryE]

When you are talking -15 you are really talking about more than fuel additives are capable of reliably working. We had -35 yesterday. Our JD 6230 feeding tractor started fine. Block heater is plugged continuously except when the engine is running. Diesel is straight #1, no blend, no additives. It's not had a fuel related starting issue since we got it 2 years ago. Last winter we had many mornings in the -35 to -45 range. That tractor runs on straight #1 from mid-October through March.

Our L5740 is used only for snow clean-up and sits in a heated garage. Never had a problem. Never had an additive.

My RTV uses the same #2 fuel as the L5740 and today I needed to use it. Warm spell, was up to 10 when I started it but it was really cold soaked yesterday when the low was -35 and high was -8. It has Power Service 911 in its tank at a slightly higher than recommended concentration. It started after 3 heating the blow plugs cycle and seemed to run okay, but when I finished my task of moving trailers around, I drove out to the mailbox(200 yards). By the time I hot there it was sputtering - symptom of filter starting to block. I nursed it back to its home in the machine shed.

So my conclusion is #1 diesel good to very cold although fuel usage goes up dramatically. #2 with cold flow additive will get a person by some places but not in real cold. By the way way on my way home from town yesterday I met one of my neighbors with a Duramax stopped along the road. Running fuel from the pumps marked #2 with cold flow additive and his problem was gelling. A problem this year is it has been unusually mild so pickup owners have been getting by with #2 with additive - it costs 40 cents less per gallon than #1 and gets 20% better fuel economy. Now that we had a cold day they are running into trouble. Another neighbor with a Powerstroke had the same thing happen and a highway patrolman told him he had 30 minutes to get his pickup off the road or he'd write him a ticket.

 

[herringchoker]

In my experience with diesel over the last 30+ years:

- the filter gels up first because that's where the greatest restriction is,
- avoid that happening by using winter diesel (if you're caught with summer fuel in the tank, cut with kerosene or drain it entirely),
- keep the tank topped up to minimize condensation,
- use a screened funnel when adding fuel,
- use a good anti-gel fuel treatment (I rely on Howes Lubricator),
- if at all possible, keep the entire engine warm by whatever means you have,
- as a last, last, last resort use ether, but use it very, very, very sparingly.

I learned all of this the hard way.

 

[buickanddeere]

Adding potions and lotions to summer #2 diesel and performing sorcery is no substitute for winter diesel fuel.

 

[BlackOps]

finally warmed teporarily to 35 with wind chill at 30. tried tractor and craked over first attempt. Phew!!!!Finally. I am glad it wasn't another more serious issue.

 

[TSO]

Well, had a chance to change the filter today. There was some "gunky ice" chunks in the bowl. Cleaned it out, put it back on with a new filter, turned the ignition on (activating fuel pump) ... Fuel bowl filled right back up. Tried to start her, and same thing, no fuel getting to the injectors. I didn't need to start it today so I didn't bother heating it up to start it. But, that tells me that it is freezing somewhere after the fuel filter.

 

[grm61]

Well, had a chance to change the filter today. There was some "gunky ice" chunks in the bowl. Cleaned it out, put it back on with a new filter, turned the ignition on (activating fuel pump) ... Fuel bowl filled right back up. Tried to start her, and same thing, no fuel getting to the injectors. I didn't need to start it today so I didn't bother heating it up to start it. But, that tells me that it is freezing somewhere after the fuel filter.



View attachment 413539

Ya,and some dirt.
I'd be thinking about getting my fuel from a different source.

 

[GManBart]

If it was mine, I'd be wondering what it looked like if you took that new fuel filter off. I'd also cut the old filter apart to get an idea what it looked like inside.

 

[Coyote machine]

Well, had a chance to change the filter today. There was some "gunky ice" chunks in the bowl. Cleaned it out, put it back on with a new filter, turned the ignition on (activating fuel pump) ... Fuel bowl filled right back up. Tried to start her, and same thing, no fuel getting to the injectors. I didn't need to start it today so I didn't bother heating it up to start it. But, that tells me that it is freezing somewhere after the fuel filter.



View attachment 413539

I would try cracking open an injector line above the injector and see if cranking the engine delivers any fuel to the line/injector fitting. If not, when you've warmed up the IP and rest of the fuel area to a temp where fuel should be delivered to the injectors, without being hampered by a freezing condition, then there may be sediment or other foreign material that is blocking flow at the IP from reaching the injectors. If you're getting flow of fuel at the 'cracked' line fitting, but still no start, it's possible the injector nozzles are jammed with junk that past by the filter, IF it was completely plugged when you changed it. So cut open the filter, inspect it, and post back results.:thumbsup: