Cold weather start CT335

[afoster]

I received my new CT335 this week just as the temperature decided to drop down to -30C. The unit is equipped with, block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater. I decided to try it out once the temp rose to -25c after being plugged in for several hours. It started no problem but I was startled by a whining sound coming from what I think is the HST drive pump (never owned a HST before just manual transmissions). As the unit slowly warmed up the sound went away. Does anyone have experience with these tractors in cold weather and can tell me what they should sound like when starting up. All the other tractors I've owned; I would let them warm up about 20 min. before trying the hydraulics, but I never heard a sound like this coming from the hydraulic pump at start up before. Still waiting for a response from the dealer as well.

 

[Canada_CT230]

My CT230 does that in the Manitoba frigid temps. It goes away as it warms up, like you said. I have had my machine for 2 winters now and 180 hours on the meter. I always let it run for 20-30 minutes, then I take it out of the shed and exercise the hydraulics.

 

[VictorW]

Your block heater works great for the engine but unfortunately it doesn't help the hst trans. It takes a while for the engine heat to warm the trans and for it to make some of its own while working. I have a Kioti CK30hst, twin to Canada's. I've used it through six Winters and when it's that cold, the trans will whine a bit until it warms up. Mine holds 7 gallons of hydro fluid and I believe yours is around 10 gallons. Just give it some warm up time as Canada mentioned.

 

[tcartwri]

My CT230 does that in the Manitoba frigid temps. It goes away as it warms up, like you said. I have had my machine for 2 winters now and 180 hours on the meter. I always let it run for 20-30 minutes, then I take it out of the shed and exercise the hydraulics.

You should not be running the motor without a load for that long. The engine will not build any heat without a load. Start it, let the idle settle down, release the clutch and wait a few minutes to circulate the fluids, and then make it work.

 

[Canada_CT230]

I'm sorry but if you move it that quickly you WILL break something. -45C does a number on fluid. Your oils will string up like silly string. I let the engine start to warm and then increase the throttle in increments until I'm pushing 1500 - 1800 RPM. I then start to move slowly and I mean slowly. Exercising the hydraulics helps circulate the tar like oils.

 

[afoster]

You should not be running the motor without a load for that long. The engine will not build any heat without a load. Start it, let the idle settle down, release the clutch and wait a few minutes to circulate the fluids, and then make it work.

I was told the same thing over the years, but only find out that it is not actually the best thing to do with some of the newer hydraulic systems on tractors. I know Kuubota in their operators manuals actually has a chart laying out the amount of time you should let the tractor warm up depending on the outside temp, before using the tractor and it's hydraulics. There is warning in the manual saying "Do not operate the tractor under full load conditions until it is sufficiently warmed up". A similar statement can also be found in the Bobcat manual advising you to warm up engine and the hydrostatic transmission fluid before operating.
I think on the older hydraulic systems your advise might be ok but the newer hydraulic system are probably built to a higher tolerance and can not take the action you suggested without creating damage. I've actually noticed quite a few pieces of equipment with hydraulics on them that advise a warm up time before use.

 

[tcartwri]

I'm sorry but if you move it that quickly you WILL break something. -45C does a number on fluid. Your oils will string up like silly string. I let the engine start to warm and then increase the throttle in increments until I'm pushing 1500 - 1800 RPM. I then start to move slowly and I mean slowly. Exercising the hydraulics helps circulate the tar like oils.

So where are you exactly that it's -45. Not Portage. If it's that cold you should not be running the machine period.

 

[VictorW]

I was told the same thing over the years, but only find out that it is not actually the best thing to do with some of the newer hydraulic systems on tractors. I know Kuubota in their operators manuals actually has a chart laying out the amount of time you should let the tractor warm up depending on the outside temp, before using the tractor and it's hydraulics. There is warning in the manual saying "Do not operate the tractor under full load conditions until it is sufficiently warmed up". A similar statement can also be found in the Bobcat manual advising you to warm up engine and the hydrostatic transmission fluid before operating.
I think on the older hydraulic systems your advise might be ok but the newer hydraulic system are probably built to a higher tolerance and can not take the action you suggested without creating damage. I've actually noticed quite a few pieces of equipment with hydraulics on them that advise a warm up time before use.

Kioti has a similar temp vs warm up time chart. I think it's there for a reason.

If you really have super cold temps, Amsoil makes a Synthetic hyd fluid. It's a 5w-30 weight, supposedly made for extended change intervals, easier flow in low temps, but costs around $150 for five gallons. Maybe an engine oil pan heater stuck to the tranny would work.

 

[afoster]

So where are you exactly that it's -45. Not Portage. If it's that cold you should not be running the machine period.

Thirty years ago in the north when it hit-40c you typically stayed home and didn't try running vehicles and equipment and is was an accepted thing to do. But now a days it doesn't seem to matter what the temp, is or the damage running your equipment in those temperatures will do; the expectation is you will start your vehicle and equipment and go to work. Doesn't make sense to me, but that is the trend up here.

 

[milkman636]

Any feedback from your dealer yet?

As a new owner of the same model tractor, I am interested in what your dealer has to say about this issue.

 

[Canada_CT230]

Yes, -45C in Portage. I froze my radiator in my truck one day coming home from work. The fluid was rated to -45C.

Sometimes you have no choice but to run equipment to dig yourself out or to remove a fallen tree that took out your hydro lines.

It can get very cold here.

 

[tcartwri]

Thirty years ago in the north when it hit-40c you typically stayed home and didn't try running vehicles and equipment and is was an accepted thing to do. But now a days it doesn't seem to matter what the temp, is or the damage running your equipment in those temperatures will do; the expectation is you will start your vehicle and equipment and go to work. Doesn't make sense to me, but that is the trend up here.

When it's that cold, the machine in question would get a blast from a herman nelson for an hour or so before we try to run it. At -45 or colder, it's just not worth your time unless it's life or death. Too many things get broken, and it's too hard on the equipment.

 

[afoster]

Any feedback from your dealer yet?

As a new owner of the same model tractor, I am interested in what your dealer has to say about this issue.

No I've had no response yet from the dealer. But then it's Christmas time and it has been bitterly cold here for the last week. So I'll give him a few more days to respond.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Metal gets brittle at those temperatures.

Fluids become much more viscous, congeal or solidify at those temperatures.

Which means that if you operate with any load before things warm up, you're chipping metal pieces off on the inside of your engine and tranny because they're both cold and un-lubricated.

I'd love to see the stats on pin shears under those kinds of subzero temps; since those don't get the benefit of engine heat.

 

[IH3444]

A no brainer, fully synthetic hydro fluid is necessary. Kubota Super UTF, or Amsoil. Man that is cold weather. Think about a foam underbelly pan for the winter also. Made one for my VW bus. Kept oil temp just right for those frosty days.

 

[Johnbro]

that's cold, all right, but they run heavy diesel equipment on the North Slope of alaska in worse.

I agree about preheating the equipment if you can't store inside. A torpedo heater and maybe a tarp for a windscreen to keep the heat around the tractor. My Kubota owner's manual says for temps below -20C (-4F) to warm up the tractor at 50% of "rated rpm" for "more than 20 minutes".

whatever that means:laughing:

I guess half the 540pto RPM (about 1400 rpm in my case) for 20-30 minutes before using the tractor. This is specifically to warm the hydraulic fluid, not the engine oil, BTW.

Which of course reminds me of my Mother's favorite limerick:

There was a young man from Quebec,
Who fell into snow up to his neck.
They asked, "Is you friz?"
He said, "yes I is,
But we don't call this cold in Quebec."

 

[afoster]

I received my new CT335 this week just as the temperature decided to drop down to -30C. The unit is equipped with, block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater. I decided to try it out once the temp rose to -25c after being plugged in for several hours. It started no problem but I was startled by a whining sound coming from what I think is the HST drive pump (never owned a HST before just manual transmissions). As the unit slowly warmed up the sound went away. Does anyone have experience with these tractors in cold weather and can they tell me what they should sound like when starting up. All the other tractors I've owned; I would let them warm up about 20 min. before trying the hydraulics, but I never heard a sound like this coming from the hydraulic pump at start up before. Still waiting for a response from the dealer as well.

Just want to bring this thread back on track. I would really like to get some response from other Bobcat tractor owners regarding cold weather start-ups as indicated in the above quote. I know all the pro and cons of synthetic oils, Herman nelson heaters for warming up the tractor etc. what I want hear is, what these tractor should sound like when started in a cold temp. So I can determine if what I'm hearing is a problem or just a normal sound for these tractors in a cold temp. Still waiting for a response from Bobcat.

 

[tcartwri]

Just want to bring this thread back on track. I would really like to get some response from other Bobcat tractor owners regarding cold weather start-ups as indicated in the above quote. I know all the pro and cons of synthetic oils, Herman nelson heaters for warming up the tractor etc. what I want hear is, what these tractor should sound like when started in a cold temp. So I can determine if what I'm hearing is a problem or just a normal sound for these tractors in a cold temp. Still waiting for a response from Bobcat.

At -15C mine will whine for about a minute or so. If you're consistently at -25 or colder I would be looking for a heated storage space. Doesn't have to be room temperature to be effective.

 

[IH3444]

The noise in your hydroststic pump which drives your hydroatatic motor is possibly cavatation, due to the thicken fluid being forced through the pump. I had read years ago that the newer hydrostatic transmissions in JD garden tractors needed light weight synthetic fluids, such as a 5w-50.

Of course as the fluid heats up its flow improves, and the noise drops.

Cavitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[afoster]

I did get a reply from the district service manger regarding the cold weather startup sound I was hearing. He did say a that in cold conditions a whinnig sound is fairly normal from these hydrostatic drives, but did qualify it, saying he would have to actually hear the sound from my machine to determine if it is normal or not. He also went on to explain how the drives work and what can cause these sounds. I was fairly satified with the explanation I got. But to be on the safe side of things I'm considering mounting a oil pan heater on the transmission case to help warm up the fuild at the same time the engine heaters are on during cold starts. I'm curious to know if anyone has possibly mounted a heater on their tramsission casing and if so what wattage rating they installed.