Compact tractoring on the cheap!?

SteveM · Jul 8, 2003

I would like the board's opinion on the following options for those looking to get dirty for small dough $$$ For example, the guy or gal looking for a tractor with an implement or 2 for less than $5,000. We all recognize this means compromises, but which is best?

1) Used older iron. (Fords N, 3 digit, 4 digit series up to 1980), older Kubota/Deere compacts, defunct brand compacts like Bolens, Allis, Deutz, Case. These tractors will be between 20-40yrs old with hours from 1000 to a zillion.
2) Used grey market reconditioned. We have all seen the ads for shiney, reconditioned Yanmars, Mitsu, Hinomoto, Iseki - arguably well designed tractors....
3) New chinese (or other emerging market) tractors like Jinma, DF, etc. The advantage of new vs. the uncertainty of quality design and build....?

Thanks for your feedback. I am curious of this line of thought, and perhaps other potential buyers are as well.

cowboydoc · Jul 8, 2003

Personally I'd go for a used older big name. You are always assured of parts, service, and dealers.

knucklehead · Jul 8, 2003

Ditto on the big name stuff, although there are others who will say otherwise who have more experience with the grays & Asians. I was thinking I'd end up with an 8N or more powerful later series, but then I started looking at IH tractors - a lot of tractor for the $$, mostly 2wd in the smaller units (<50hp). I ended up with a '79 Ford 1700 (2cyl diesel 77Cu in/27HP) 4wd with loader & light 5" cutter for $6500. No power steering, but plenty of everything else.

About an even third of what I was contemplating, and I still get to look for that newer/bigger one for later!

cowboydoc · Jul 8, 2003

You are right IH is probably the best deal out there. For comparative hp you won't find anything close in blue, green, or orange.

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2003

I've got a 1973 International 454D. It's a 179 cu in 3 cylinder diesel with about 40 HP or so. It's a massive chunk of steel, power steering, very easy to use shifting "Lightening Shift" as the manual states and still a great tractor. It has a mere 1650 hours on it. I am trying to deciding whether to sell it but have to admit some sentimental attachment to it. The power it has certainly is far greater then any of the compacts, yet it's size really is not all that much bigger. Trying to esatablish a value for these older units is hard at best. Problem is, they are far more valuable to us then what others are willing to pay. My thoughts were to sell it and a mower for $10,000. the mower is a Woods DO 80 offset brush mower whoose original value was $4250. I get the feeling though that this would probably be unobtainable. Rat...

slowrev · Jul 8, 2003

I would recommend a used American made tractor in the 60's to mid 70's range. You will always have parts problems with the grey market tractors.

I bought a 1968 IH 444 with factory loader for 4K. 2500 hrs, Live PTO, 2 remotes + seperate pump and remotes for loader. Good solid tractor. I just spent a couple of hunderd dollars changing all of the filters and fluids and it works great. It is just a bit taller than the Kioti's, JD,s and such but not too large of a tractor and I can get parts and service for it. The IH 424's are good too, about 35 hp I think. You can find them in gas or diesel.
Good luck.

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 8, 2003

All of the above advice is good advice. I just want to add one brand name no one has mentioned - Oliver. Look at some older used Oliver tractors and you'll be amazed at the HP you can buy for the money. These are great machines and, in my humble opinion, about the best kept secret in the used tractor market (well, until now, maybe).

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

rtimgray · Jul 8, 2003

Can't go too wrong with the older American iron, but it may be a bit ungainly, too heavy or too difficult to transport as compared to a true compact tractor. Nothing wrong with them at all, just depends upon your application.

I think the best value in a true compact tractor of relative modern design is a grey market tractor, especially Yanmars. Yanmars are in my mind one of the premier tractors on the planet. I've had both Yanmars and an older John Deere tractor, and parts for the Yanmar are much easier to find (in my experience). I was able to find almost every part I was looking for with the JD, but it took a lot of searching and calling junkyards, etc. The JD dealer had only a few of the parts I needed.

I would steer clear from the alleged Reconditioned tractors with the shiny paint jobs, as it has been discussed here that the reconditioning process primarily involves shooting a fresh coat of paint over everything, putting on a new seat cover, and battery, and a sign that says "Reconditioned". Go for an un-repainted model from a reputable importer/dealer and you can't go wrong.

I think the Chinese tractors are a viable alternative, but I think you need to be prepared to turn some wrenches (although this is true for any of the types of tractors mentioned here). The Chinese tractors have the advantage of being new, the old american iron has the advantage of more parts/service availability. Kind of depends on your taste.

I would still vote for a grey market Yanmar. Good luck.

Take it Easy

Tim Gray

fivestring · Jul 8, 2003

It depends on what the couple wants to do with the two implements and what the two implements are. For maint. type work (no moving 1200 pound bales of hay or high pto hp needs) a grey market compact or American (Jap) compact will do fine -- more maneuverable than larger, heavier full-size tractors. Iseki, Yanmar, Mitsubishi, etc. are fine - I haven't had parts problems yet. NH, Kubota, JD, etc. are fine, too... except the dealers are too proud of them ($$$$$). Just my .02.

cowboydoc · Jul 8, 2003

NH, Kubota, JD, etc. are fine, too... except the dealers are too proud of them ($$$$$).

You get what you pay for.

hillslider · Jul 8, 2003

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You get what you pay for.

As far as older American tractors go I have always liked the Massey 135. A good heavy stable tractor that is easy to use.
I have seen good used ones out there for the 3k to 4k range.

Later

rockyridgefarm · Jul 8, 2003

Also, don't forget that most of the new ones offer great finance options. A used tractor can also end up costing to keep it going, sometimes not much, sometimes a whole lot. I know that blows your proposed budget, but be sure to count ALL costs!

Egon · Jul 8, 2003

For going as inexpensively as possible there is no set answer as it will probably involve used equipment. That means you have to search for and be there at just the right time for a reasonable deal on a machine in respectable condition.

As for the cheap compact there is no such thing. You pays now or you pays later but you will end up paying.

Egon

rtimgray · Jul 8, 2003

NH, Kubota, JD, etc. are fine, too... except the dealers are too proud of them ($$$$$).

You get what you pay for.

Yeah, I know that I like to pay a couple thousand more for that John Deere compact instead of its paternal twin Yanmar. Same with New Holland/Ford and Shibaura. It's no doubt that the alleged big three make fine compact tractors because they are either built in Japan, assembled with components made in Japan, or have their components made in America based on Japanese technology. Must be something in the water, huh?

It is (in my opinion) indisputable that JD, NH and Kubota market fine compact tractors under their respective brands. We've used Fords (although the older American made utility/ag tractors) for years with good luck; my JD 2010 backhoe was okay, but nothing special; the Kubota L1500/L175 was a good little compact, but not as nice as a Yanmar 1500. As the major three players in the game, they command a high yet fair market price - if it wasn't fair, folks (except for the ones that are blindly brand loyal) wouldn't buy. I personally don't buy for name alone - I doubt too many people do. When you buy a JD, NH or Kubota, you are buying a fine tractor and name. In my area, from my comparison shopping, I quite frankly have no idea how anyone can afford a JD. The Kubotas and New Hollands were very reasonable I thought, though.

I think somebody else has posted on this forum before the comment "You don't always get what you pay for, but you seldom get more." I also don't think that just because you buy a big name tractor you are necessarily getting a better product; you may be getting one with a more recognizable name and local access to parts in service. However, the savvy buyer who does their due diligence can often pick up an equivalent grey-market counterpart to the alleged American-made tractor and come out ahead by hundreds or thousands of dollars. It may require a bit more research and a few phone calls, but that is part of the education process. For those you are afraid to do their own mechanic work, its good that the premium priced tractors are available; that way there is a tractor for every type of buyer.

Take it Easy

Tim Gray

cowboydoc · Jul 9, 2003

With JD at least the tractors are made to John Deere specs. You won't see a John Deere spec engine in a yanmar. Lots of little differences like wet sleeves, etc. Brakes are different. Hydraulics are different. Flow is different. Materials are different. They aren't the same tractors. It's the same for NH and Kubota. Others may try and copy them or at least make the look the same but the specs are most certainly not the same nor are the components.

It's the same thing with the JD 5303 and the equivalent hp JD 5320. They look like the same tractor but when you really compare the two they are as different as night and day.

There are differences in more than the paint.

knucklehead · Jul 9, 2003

<font color="blue">It's the same thing with the JD 5303 and the equivalent hp JD 5320. They look like the same tractor but when you really compare the two they are as different as night and day.</font>

Cowboydoc - I have been searching TBN recently for info on larger JD's and got into one thread where you were participating and discussing your next purchase - I believe it led to the 4600 (I had the same questions about why go 4700 or a few hp and no improvement in hydraulics, lift, etc., BTW). Sounds like you've gained some knowledge about the bigger ag/utility tractors. I don't mean to hijack this thread, could you expound on that briefly? I'm not in the market right now, but gathering info for a +/- five year distant purchase. I know at a certain level JD starts making its own engines, etc., but I've only recently considered green stuff because I basically get the impression they're the Harleys of the tractor world - everyone wants them, no incentive to price attractively or innovate engineering-wise. Not to start a firestorm, just an impression, that's all.

Egon · Jul 9, 2003

There is more than brand symbolisim involved in the agriculture business.

The equipent must preform, be reliable and have a readily available supply of parts.

When its time to plant or harvest there is only a small window of opportunity availabe. If the equipment fails and the crop is not harvested the bills become very difficult to pay.

Successful farmers will be using reliable equipment. They will also know which models/makes have problems and avoid them.

Egon

rtimgray · Jul 9, 2003

I could be grossly misinformed, but I have seen it documented that the JD 850 and 950 cross directly (minus the PTO speeds) to the Yanmar 2500 and 3000 respectively (I think these are isolated cases). Are these a couple that JD let slide or did Yanmar slide them in on the sly? I agree that there are many differences between the grey market tractors and their American cousins (although very few on the Kubotas, but with the injunction against their importation to the states, that's a moot point), but the grey market tractors sacrifice precious little. It seems that most of the the detractors of grey market tractors, like the detractors of chinese tractors, have never actually owned one, driven one, seen one, etc...just what they hear from word of mouth or posted somewhere on the internet. I have also seen posts from grey market and chinese tractor owners that got a bad unit and have suffered and probably thought "Man, why did I get into this?"

I'll readily agree that there are differences between the greys and the American tractors, but I won't agree that the tractors made the JD/NH/MF specs are any better than their grey cousins. They each have their good points/bad points and have a different owner-buyer markets (owner tolerances and such). All in all, I personally think that a Yanmar grey market tractor is the best value on the compact tractor market today. But hey, I owned a Belarus for five years, so what do I know anyway?

Take it Easy

Tim Gray

EagleEye · Jul 9, 2003

SteveM,
I just sold my Ford 8N in April so that I could buy a new NH TC35. I almost shed a tear when I watched that guy drive my 48' (1947 year) model down the 600' driveway. It was like watching an old friend that I'd been through a lot of good and bad times together leaving me forever.

Well, that guy drove that tractor home (which was about 15 miles away). He still says it's a great tractor (I sold it to him for $2300, which is $300 more than I paid for it).

The 8N is a GREAT starter tractor. It's inexpensive to purchase, works great with a brush hog, is very inexpensive to maintain and a very simple machine to fix. You can also find a HUGE support network like this one at Yesterday's tractors. When it comes to knowing how to fix things, those guys (many of them, old timers) have a fantastic collection of knowledge. I learned tricks from them that astounded me (like how to get the rear seal off the axle without taking off your knee caps at the same time). /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif....

In any event, I am biased because when I grew up, we had Ford tractors (much more recent models) but I will agree that you can't go wrong with an American brand.

I'm am admittedly tough on a tractor and that 8N was just coming back asking for more... She loved to work hard for me. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

EagleEye · Jul 9, 2003

.... oh yea...forgot to tell you ... I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF A GREASE MONKEY SO don't interpret my changing a rear seal with any great feats of mechanical strength. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif