Complexity and Reliability

[sequoyah101]

Is trading old and worn for new fangled with lots of bells and whistles I don't think I need or will ever use really a step up or down?

I am not getting younger. Though I don't have money to blow I have been thinking of upgrading some of my old equipment. Specifically my Schaeff SKL 831 loader with the mighty Perkins Parma engine and my uber reliable Komatsu PC-40 that has done things no small excavator should do. I am leery though because of all the electronics on the newer machines. Electronic and electrical troubles that can render a solid machine into a boat anchor or multi-ton yard ornament. I doubt seriously they would last even as long as I do without serious problems. My machines stay in the barn when not in use and the cats protect them from vermin and still I chase gremlins on things like the JCB 7 contact points of safety interlock for starting the 210S.

The 210S gets new hoses, a bushing or two and a cylinder pack here and there. The old deep throw Perkins continues to reach down to the bottom of the barrel and lug away so long as I don't lock the emergency brake and the torque converter gets the right old Ford blue ATF. Nothing I have beats it for mobility, burying dead cows, cleaning out water crossings on the creeks, cleaning ditches and general heaving things around. The dozer stays too for as long as the Sauer computer and hall effect sensors stay with me.

The last gen CaseIH tractors without computers and just push pull cables and such stay also. I know they are old Fiat designs with Iveco engines but they are simple and keep doing their chores with a good margin of comfort.

I am looking at Case 331F and a 57 or 80 size hoe. Also considering the equivalent in Bobcat, JCB, Volvo, New Holland and Wacker offerings.

Experiences of others I read are as I expect, chasing lots of gremlins in the electrical / electronics system. I have a friend that buys new equipment regularly to prevent repairs and downtime. His tactic seems to be working less and costing more since he can't fix a thing himself. He has been searching in vain for older equipment in good shape instead of new. Two events have driven him this way. One was a $30,000 wiring harness for the "space age" experience Cat grader and the other was $35,000 in repairs and a tech to come from somewhere for JD to reburn his computer with an after market fix to a screw up JD won't own up to. Tractor runs perfectly for now. That computer fix was $5K after JD hit him for $30K for no solution.

What happens to this new fangled equipment with lots of junk on it you mostly don't ever use or the engines that now more closely resemble a Formula I or Pratt and Whitney F100 engine in complexity when it is not fixable way before the time the iron wears out? Electronics are just throw away and planned obsolescence but heavy equipment? Surely not but thast is the way we are headed.

The only reason I can think of for computer based load management is the too small engines in some stuff and bad operators. Ditto for a computer that has load settings for different attachments. What is there to run that requires so many load management changes? Most used equipment I see has never had anything hooked up to the auxiliary hydraulics or the multi-pin connector anyway. The Wacker-Neuson wheel loaders are loaded with hydraulics that never get used as they are eaten up loading fertilizer. Yeah, you really need all the bells and whistles to shovel salt don't you? How about compost and cow **** in a dirt yard?

All this stuff falls into the same category of a car with an infotainment system. I've managed to navigate myself all over the world without benefit of GPS or anything other than a map and don't need anything else.

I may just keep my old stuff and argue with it until one of us dies.

Any thoughts or experience or regrets in upgrading to new and advanced laden with chips and sensors? The new diesel engines have a canister on the exhaust that looks more like an atomic bomb than anything else. I don't see how long it can last.

 

[fc1]

No experience with any of that really, but to be honest, it sounds like you know the answer already..

 

[rScotty]

I'm sticking with our older equipment for now. I understand it - and even though I am physically less and less able to fix it myself, take comfort in at least being able to understand and diagnose the problem.
And the truth is that most old machinery is easily diagnosed and fixed. That's partly because old machines were made to be repaired, and also because they tend to wear rather than break.
That's OK. Replacing worn parts is something that can be done at my convenience.

And each year I don't replace old with new saves money toward the inevitable.

rScotty

 

[watson01]

Is trading old and worn for new fangled with lots of bells and whistles I don't think I need or will ever use really a step up or down?

I am not getting younger. Though I don't have money to blow I have been thinking of upgrading some of my old equipment. Specifically my Schaeff SKL 831 loader with the mighty Perkins Parma engine and my uber reliable Komatsu PC-40 that has done things no small excavator should do. I am leery though because of all the electronics on the newer machines. Electronic and electrical troubles that can render a solid machine into a boat anchor or multi-ton yard ornament. I doubt seriously they would last even as long as I do without serious problems. My machines stay in the barn when not in use and the cats protect them from vermin and still I chase gremlins on things like the JCB 7 contact points of safety interlock for starting the 210S.

The 210S gets new hoses, a bushing or two and a cylinder pack here and there. The old deep throw Perkins continues to reach down to the bottom of the barrel and lug away so long as I don't lock the emergency brake and the torque converter gets the right old Ford blue ATF. Nothing I have beats it for mobility, burying dead cows, cleaning out water crossings on the creeks, cleaning ditches and general heaving things around. The dozer stays too for as long as the Sauer computer and hall effect sensors stay with me.

The last gen CaseIH tractors without computers and just push pull cables and such stay also. I know they are old Fiat designs with Iveco engines but they are simple and keep doing their chores with a good margin of comfort.

I am looking at Case 331F and a 57 or 80 size hoe. Also considering the equivalent in Bobcat, JCB, Volvo, New Holland and Wacker offerings.

Experiences of others I read are as I expect, chasing lots of gremlins in the electrical / electronics system. I have a friend that buys new equipment regularly to prevent repairs and downtime. His tactic seems to be working less and costing more since he can't fix a thing himself. He has been searching in vain for older equipment in good shape instead of new. Two events have driven him this way. One was a $30,000 wiring harness for the "space age" experience Cat grader and the other was $35,000 in repairs and a tech to come from somewhere for JD to reburn his computer with an after market fix to a screw up JD won't own up to. Tractor runs perfectly for now. That computer fix was $5K after JD hit him for $30K for no solution.

What happens to this new fangled equipment with lots of junk on it you mostly don't ever use or the engines that now more closely resemble a Formula I or Pratt and Whitney F100 engine in complexity when it is not fixable way before the time the iron wears out? Electronics are just throw away and planned obsolescence but heavy equipment? Surely not but thast is the way we are headed.

The only reason I can think of for computer based load management is the too small engines in some stuff and bad operators. Ditto for a computer that has load settings for different attachments. What is there to run that requires so many load management changes? Most used equipment I see has never had anything hooked up to the auxiliary hydraulics or the multi-pin connector anyway. The Wacker-Neuson wheel loaders are loaded with hydraulics that never get used as they are eaten up loading fertilizer. Yeah, you really need all the bells and whistles to shovel salt don't you? How about compost and cow **** in a dirt yard?

All this stuff falls into the same category of a car with an infotainment system. I've managed to navigate myself all over the world without benefit of GPS or anything other than a map and don't need anything else.
alightmotionlab
I may just keep my old stuff and argue with it until one of us dies.

Any thoughts or experience or regrets in upgrading to new and advanced laden with chips and sensors? The new diesel engines have a canister on the exhaust that looks more like an atomic bomb than anything else. I don't see how long it can last.

It's understandable to be cautious about newer tech, especially with reliability concerns. If your current machines still perform well, upgrading might offer some benefits, but balance the cost against potential maintenance issues.

 

[ultrarunner]

If your equipment gets the job done you are good.

I find as tech becomes more complex ranging from farm tractors to medical equipment more are leasing or renting.

No one want to be stuck with a 50k paperweight yard art that a 30k repair "Might" fix.

Same applies to cars...

There is a reason Model A and Model Ts are still around a hundred years later... just saying.

 

[oldnslo]

The new bells and whistles are nice when they work but a potentially expensive repair when they don’t. Had a 2011 Deere throw a code some electrical fault and warning to shut engine off. Dealer replaced the alternator since that’s what computer said was wrong. Got same error after 3 hours runtime. I pulled out the voltmeter and started disconnecting batteries ( has 3 of them) found on bad cell in one so left ground disconnected on that one and ran the rest of the day. Told dealer what problem was and they replaced the alternator again since computer still said bad alternator.

Have also had fuel filter warnings where unplug sensor and reconnected sensor ran rest of the season.

These are minor compared to the 2018 & 19 models with DEF. They throw a code and occasionally they will reset but your are shutdown till they do reset.

Half million dollar tractor down because of a $20 sensor. I would keep old if still getting the job done.

 

[dodge man]

I say get what you need when you need it. If your getting by and don’t hate it don’t buy new.

 

[newbury]

My jetta - ~ 10 years ago wouldn't pass state inspection because an optional turn signal on the driver's (external) side mirror didn't work. The ones on the car body did.
Last year I had to get a parking proximity sensor repaired on my Ford Escape to pass state inspection.
Cars that don't have these extra doodads pass inspection fine.

 

[wolc123]

My jetta - ~ 10 years ago wouldn't pass state inspection because an optional turn signal on the driver's (external) side mirror didn't work. The ones on the car body did.
Last year I had to get a parking proximity sensor repaired on my Ford Escape to pass state inspection.
Cars that don't have these extra doodads pass inspection fine.

Wow, it sounds like VA is as crazy as NY, when it comes to state inspections. I always put a fiberglass cap on my pickup in the winter so that I can still use the bed. My cap had a brake light on the top of the back window.

The truck wouldn’t pass inspection without that brake light wired up and working. That would not have been convenient for me, because I frequently move the cap on and off, when I need to haul bulky items. I made fork extensions for my tractor loader, to make that a fast easy one man operation.

I removed the trouble making brake light fixture with a pry bar and hammer and no more problems with state inspection now. Another nice thing about this old 3/4 ton pickup, is that it doesn’t need to be connected to the state computer system for inspection, like all of our lighter payload vehicles do.

I can really relate to the OP’s concerns about the new-fangled stuff. I’ve been having lots of fun this winter, plowing snow with that old 1950’s Farmall Cub that fits in the pickup truck bed. No emissions stuff on it, no preheat needed on the little 10 hp gasoline engine, and no electronics.

Very few repairs needed either. It had sat unused, in the back of a factory for many years, and probably had less than 500 hours on it. I took it to the best Farmall mechanic in the area, after I bought it (3) years ago (cost me $783.17 at the auction), for a tune up and to change all the fluids. It has ran like a watch ever since.

My only trouble with it so far was a slow oil leak on top of the filter, that I noticed last fall, after I used it on a cultipacker. I was able to fix that in less than 15 minutes with an 8” adjustable wrench and some emery paper.

 

[Hay Dude]

IMO, the only way you can profitably own modern, complex equipment and you can’t fix the “computer/electronic” issues, is if you have a shop you can trust.

I fix everything I can, but when it comes to the computer/electronic stuff, I am lucky to have an AGCO dealer that can fix my tractors. That is why I have 3 of them.