Concealed Carry and Consequences

[the_sandman_454]

I suspect the outcome would have been quite a bit different if someone like me (27, 6'4", ~290lbs) were in that situation instead of an older lady.

I think that is terrible. Everyone should have a reasonable right to protect themselves *and* their belongings. Who it is should have nothing to do with it, whether it's someone young or old. I know if I hear a strange noise around my place, or hear my truck or tractor fire up, I'll probably not wait for the cops to arrive, I'm going to meander out to investigate, and with me, will likely be my trusty carbine length AR15 locked & loaded.

I think it is unreasonable to think just how much we've given in to criminals to think that letting someone steal your stuff is not only acceptable behavior, but the only correct behavior. I wish my state had laws like Texas does, except stronger (remove the "after dark" provision)...

That's not to say I'll shoot anybody suspicious on my property. But it shouldn't be illegal to check my posessions, weapon in hand, in case something is amiss, and someone decides they need my things more than I do. I worked hard for what I have, and I'll be damned if I let some slimy thug get their hands on my stuff if I can prevent it. The law needs to reflect that, and guess what? I suspect theft will drop after the first few meet their fate. I suspect a lot of thugs would start to consider a career change. They used to hang horse thieves, let's bring that back for car thieves, and other somewhat expensive items (tractors, motorcycles, ATV's, etc)... If it ain't yours, and you the owner didn't give you permission to use it, you have no use to society and should go away.

Some day I'll run for office, and we'll start to clear some of this crap up...

 

[KYErik]

Good point Bird. There probably is a lot more to this story than we read in the media report and its hard to make a judgement without all the details. I'm sure the police considered all the details that the media didn't ever get ahold of.

I suppose I would hesitate to shoot out someone's tire if I just caught a tresspasser eyeing my stuff, but if they threatened me or my family or if they told me that they'd be back later on when I wasn't around- then I might want to be sure and keep them on my property until the police arrived. I guess she found a way to do that!

I carry a pistol at night on my property when I go out to investigate what my dogs are barking at (usually turns out to be a fox etc. out in my hay field). I hope I never have to use it.

Maybe this was more of a "citizen's arrest". Can you hold someone at gunpoint until the police arrive after you see them commit a crime ? Anyone know the rules on making a citizen's arrest while carrying a gun? I would guess that it would be better to make such an arrest while on your own property rather than chasing after them.

It would be nice to know of all the rules before something happens where we could be arrested for overreacting.

 

[RedRocker]

She was too kind just shooting his tire.

 

[dmccarty]

Maybe this was more of a "citizen's arrest". Can you hold someone at gunpoint until the police arrive after you see them commit a crime ? Anyone know the rules on making a citizen's arrest while carrying a gun? I would guess that it would be better to make such an arrest while on your own property rather than chasing after them.

I was thinking of Citizens Arrest for some reason when reading this thread. Course when I think/hear "Citizens Arrest" I just see Goober chasing Barney down the street shouting "Citizens Arrest! Citizens Arrest!"

What I picked up from various news reports is that there where three men involved. One was arrested with the car and the other two where picked up nearby walking down the road.

I am not a lawyer, I did not play one on TV last night, nor did I stay in a certain hotel.

There is the reasonable and necessary test in the law. In this case you have a little old lady with a cane confronting three young men who likely have comitted a tresspass and appear to be commiting a felony theft. At least *** I ***, who likes to think of himself as being reasonable, think it was reasonable for her to think they where thugs intent on robbing her.

So is it reasonable for her to point a weapon at them?

How about shooting out the tires?

I would venture to guess that in any state, a warning shot is considered a use of deadly force. If she had fired a warning shot would it have been "reasonable?" If the dear reader switched places with the little old lady with a cane, would it still be reasonable? That is what the officer, magistate, DA, judge and jury might have to decide.

Back to Barney and Goober. Contrary to the legal goings on of Barney and Goober, in NC there is no such thing as a citizens arrest. A citizen CAN use the force that is reasonable and necessary to DETAIN someone until a LEO arrives. *** IF *** this same law applies in the little old lady's state, was she correct in her actions?

Also a key element is that she is a little old lady with a cane. That means she is not as strong as the younger men. She obviously has limited mobility. And most likely is much smaller in size. And there where multiple men at the scene. She was way out numbered by the criminals based on numbers, mass and strength.

A young man could very likely make the same arguments. A young man would be out numbered 3 to 1. That there is a bad thing. If the young man had a bad back or some other health issue that could enter the reasonable test as well.

The flip side of this is, should you just call the cops and let them come and get them? Or are the response times too long for the guys to be caught. In a city, I would call 911. In a rural area it depends on the time issue.

So what would I have done in my circumstances with my experience and training? I would have called 911 and told them there was a burglary in progress. I would have been armed. I would have confronted them. Depending on the distance between me and them they might have a weapon pointed at them. It certainly would be reasonable to do so. I would not have shot out the tires much less fired a "warning" shot. That is just asking for trouble.

Remember, "reasonable and necessary" is an open definition. Its defined by the circumstances of the event, and possibly one or more of the following, the officer, the magistate, the DA, the judge and the jury. And state laws will/can differ. Know your local laws.

Later,
Dan

 

[rogdan]

would send my daughter to a school where certain trained adult individuals were armed in order to protect her in case another forgein born insane idiot,or home grown one for that matter,decided to go to **** that day.

I believe VT had many of those on campus in uniform that day.

 

[rogdan]

would send my daughter to a school where certain trained adult individuals were armed in order to protect her in case another forgein born insane idiot,or home grown one for that matter,decided to go to **** that day.

.

It was reported that VT had many of those on campus in uniform that day

 

[rogdan]

I have a WV CCW permit but haven't carried since getting out of the habit a couple of years ago. I traveled alot and mostly nights at that time but generally kept the gun in the car. The only time I ever presented a handgun in that time was to end the suffering of a deer I had just hit on a loney stretch of highway. I do plan to carry again with fishing trips in the mountains for potential four legged problems as unconcealed makes people nervous.
Being respectful of others feelings is the reason to carry concealed not to "sneak" a gun around.

 

[thingy]

Rog,thats why I carry a 7mm mag or 12 gauge slung over my shoulder when I go out of my compound,,don't wan't to be sneaky,,the only thing I like to conceal is,,,no,not that,,,,,is my backup,a 357,,even wear my knife out in open,no,they can't accuse me of being sneaky. [plus I'm not scared of anything anymores like I used to be],will try and walk up and try to talk to people I don't even know even,[nobody wants to,but thats their problem],,thingy

 

[weldingisfun]

People can certainly give their opinion as to whether or not what she did was right, good, legal, or whatever based only on what they read in that news story. However, I don't think anyone can give you a valid answer as to whether or not "the police usually let this sort of thing go without charging the shooter with "aggravated discharge of a firearm"" for a number of reasons. In the first place, the news story (as with most news stories) isn't the whole story. It leaves many questions unanswered. In the second place, news stories frequently are not very factual. In the third place, laws vary from state to state. In Texas, I never heard of "aggravated discharge of a firearm" so I don't even know what that is. The story uses the plural for trespassers, but only lists one arrest. How many were there? And why was only one arrested if more than one was there? Was the land posted? Or did they enter a closed building? In Texas, to be charged with trespassing, you usually need one of those circumstances. Otherwise, they have to be told to leave and refuse to be charged with trespassing. Was there an actual attempted theft? Did this happen in anyone's city limits? Or out in the country? "Deputy" instead of "police officer" would lead me to suspect it was outside city limits (although that could certainly be a wrong belief). No law in most of Texas, outside city limits, against discharging a firearm on your own property as long as it doesn't harm anyone, cross a road, etc., etc. Could she be charged with damaging his property? Maybe. I'm not surprised that she was not arrested. We probably would not have arrested her, based on what's in the story, and what I might guess the rest of the story to be.

In Texas there is "Trespass" and "Criminal Trespass". Criminal Trespass is defined in Penal Code (PC 30.05). A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a building of another without effective consent and he:
(1)had notice that the enrty was forbidden; or
(2)received notice to depart but failed to do so.
Sounds like the fellows encountered by the lady were committing Criminal Trespass, but as Bird said, we don't know all of the facts and can't by reading what was in the paper. However, the actions of the Deputy indicate that Criminal Trespass may have been commited.

 

[Bill Barrett]

I haven't read all the other posts. My two cents is it's a tool, I doubt I would every need for myself just take my chances, more for protection of the family.
I do shoot all the time and take classes for fun and to keep sharp. I'm working on the wife to go to self-defense classes. It's a changing world.
Better to have and not need than the other way around.