Cordless welder???

Highbeam · Mar 4, 2005

The electrician I spoke with actually recommended not to just tie the neutral and ground together. His reason being that it does not conform to the green is ground rule. Since the green is now a neutral tied to the neutral bar of the generator.

I have run it both ways and it hasn't shocked me yet. I prefer to maintain the integrity of the chassis ground rather than tie it together with neutral.

If you really want to be a safety nut, I suppose the next step is to drive a brass grounding rod 8' into the earth and attach a ground jumper to the generator. Some people actually do this.

WhiteRock · Mar 4, 2005

I guess I am not familiar with the what the "green is ground rule" implies. I know of no problem created by connecting the ground to the neutral (or center tap) of the generator. My guess is that if you look at a factory machine's schematic, this will probably be done. This is the way it is done in the main switch box at the residence. I actually think it is better that the two be tied together, otherwise if you have a failure like I described above, 240 VAC could appear on the chassis instead of 120. However, 240 might knock you loose better that 120 (without the ground and neutral connected).

If you make extension cords and follow the grounding I described, you can reduce shock hazard when using an appliance. That being; If you have green or 4th wire, take it through, if not carry it through on the neutral.

Disconnected or connected, it will not shock you unless you have a failure in the wiring. If you want to "feel" test, I can tell you how to wire it to simulate the failure. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

The ground rod might offer peace of mind, but I can't think of any practical scenario where it would help. If you were working in lightning, you might get lucky....

Highbeam · Mar 4, 2005

Yes they, ground and neutral, are indeed wired to the same buss in the box at a house and probably within the generator. A redundant ground system with two entirely separate paths except at the terminations.

If either one of the hot wires touches ground inside the welder you will always get 110, never 220. It is very difficult to have a ground fault with 220 because the push and pull of the alternating current is from two different phases. To get 220 you would have to have one wire from each phase in separate hands.

You only need one safety ground with 220, really you don't even need one since the two hot wires do everything. Using both white and green as grounds won't hurt anything. The 4 wire cord will be harder to find, more expensive, and less flexible. The fourth wire which would normally be green will likely be bare copper and of a lighter gauge. The ground lug of the 3 prong plug might not be big enough to accomodate both wires. It is better to have one wire installed correctly than two fat wires jambed in there that may fall out.

WhiteRock · Mar 4, 2005

Wow, nicely said. Maybe someday I will learn to convey my thoughts like this. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MMM · Mar 4, 2005

TXDon, do a web search on ZENA WELDER. Not sure about MIG, but I know they make a SMAW. unit( less than 500 bucks I've seen another unit that will also run a grinder. Good luck.

Soundguy · Mar 5, 2005

( If you really want to be a safety nut, I suppose the next step is to drive a brass grounding rod 8' into the earth and attach a ground jumper to the generator. Some people actually do this.
)

On my pto generator.. it has the hots and neutral in the plug, and then has a seperate chassie ground lug on the case for you to do just that.. tia in a earth ground via metal stake.

I have this setup on a pallet, and have a length of heavy wire pre-attatched to a rid I can drive in the ground when I get the genny where I want it.. etc.

Probably not necescary.. but by the book anyway..

Soundguy

YanmarFever · Mar 6, 2005

I have a century cordless welder (suitcase style) wire feed, its great for in the field emergencys.
I bought it on ebay 4 yrs. ago for 250. its a bit on the fragile side but it works good for what it was designed to do, light welds. You just flip the switch & weld anywhere, it will weld up to 60" long between charges. It paid for itself a long time ago.
Ernie
www.ernies.net

Highbeam · Mar 8, 2005

Strange thing happened. I was welding my brush rake together. Putting down 1/8" 7018 at the full 235 amps. I noticed that when I would run the arc that the cooling fan would shut off and then when I stopped the weld, the fan would come back on. The little 5500 watt generator never missed a beat humming along in the back of my pickup.

I looked at the generator and saw the sticker stating that it has a floating neutral. It could be that the green ground lug on the 4 prong twistlock does not internally connect to the neutral/common white lug as it does in a home electrical system. It could be that the cooling fan tries to get 110 volts by connecting a hot lead to the ground which would work fine on a house system but maybe not with the "floating neutral".

I still don't understand why the fan would work unless I was actually welding. It acted the same way even when welding at lower amperages.

The rake works great.

Kyle_in_Tex · Mar 8, 2005

TxDon, what about an oxyacetylene gas rig? Slowrev mentioned this. You can cut, weld, braze etc. Also works great to heat up bent items if you know what I mean. Hard to beat and will compliment any electric welder...Kyle

txdon · Mar 8, 2005

Kyle, I have been thinking about that also. I was talking to my welding instructor about a machine for the farm and he strongly recommended a good MIG.

EddieWalker · Mar 9, 2005

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't a MIG welder more of a sheetmetal and thin metals type of welder? Will it put a strong weld on something that a tractor has busted or hold together a metal building?

Bird · Mar 9, 2005

Eddie, I'm not much of a welder myself, but I've seen folks use a MIG welder on some pretty big, heavy stuff. My toothbar was just a tiny bit too long when I got it, so I let a real welder cut it in two, shorten it a bit, and weld it back together with a MIG welder.

Soundguy · Mar 9, 2005

With what you can buy comercially... I wouldn't be afraid of 3/8 and up to 1/2 inch if done right. I would think for thicker applications you would need 'more' equipment than will run off of single phase 220 service.. etc.

Given equal amp machines.. stick seems to penetrate much better. Must be electrode size difference.

Soundguy

Dargo · Mar 9, 2005

EddieWalker, the MIG welder I want will weld the heavy stuff your talking about just fine. However, the MIG welder I can afford won't. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Phred · Apr 7, 2005

I hope our resident inspector will weigh in and clairify this if I do not make it clear, but......

The green safety ground and the white neutral in a house are tied togheter only at the service entrance. It is in fact unsafe and a code violation to tie them togheter else where. The reason is that under normal operation the green should never have current flowing in it unless a fault occurs. The neutral does in fact have current flow throw it.

Fred

rswyan · Apr 7, 2005

( Forgive my ignorance, but isn't a MIG welder more of a sheetmetal and thin metals type of welder? Will it put a strong weld on something that a tractor has busted or hold together a metal building?
)

Depends on who's doing the welding I guess ..... I've joined 1" steel plate for the backhoe ripper tooth I built (image attached) using my MIG which is only rated 1/4" single pass MIG and 1/2" with flux-core using multi-pass.

I've used it for the past week or so on some rather larger tree roots and it hasn't broke in half yet (knock on wood) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif It definitely has been under some serious stress.

txdon · Apr 7, 2005

rswyan, I looked at your building the ripper post and realized that you welded the end together and then ground it smooth, that is amazing. What MIG do you have?