CRACK! There goes the new PHD auger...

[daugen]

Brand new small Land Pride PD10, digging holes for fenceposts to put in a new garden, in a field that is a warzone for rocks. Worked wonderfully for half an hour, then stopped. When we investigated, we found the auger tip sitting in the soil, broken off from the bottom of the bit. I took some high rez pics of the metal area that broke; I'm wondering if the metal grain should be that coarse. The rest of the bit showed wear, but not major damage; this thing just twisted its neck off.

I was running a 21hp pto tractor at 1500 rpms, pretty slow, and stalled the tractor a few times, but I was hoping not to overpower the bit. Sure did.
Dealer wants it back, I have no idea if Land Pride will replace it since it was clearly used, and they might well say abused. I know I hit a big rock, I'm fessing up. And I have no expectations they will give me a free one, just curiosity at this point. This is a new garden in a spot that I have no idea what's underneath, other than a sea of rocks. This bit looked pretty beefy for a 4 inch bit, but it was not a specialized rock bit. Maybe I ought to get one.
We used a big heavy bar to whale on the uncooperative rocks, and that usually got things moving enough for the auger to clean the hole of the rocks.
But this time it went down, and just twisted its head off.

We kept digging, after digging a pilot hole which was a real drag, and it really didn't dig that well, nor did we expect it to, but it got the job done and we were pleased. 4x4's got put in about two feet down, and we leveled them with a nifty plastic level my wife got me made for posts. My own little Stonehenge at the moment without the deer fence on it. No pics of the post work yet probably a good thing since when we put the posts in at one end my friend and i looked at each other and started laughing. We were so far off... We moved one and all was well, but my friend and I agreed not to come back in our next life as land surveyors.

 

[bilrus61]

Land Pride should replace it under warrenty. If not be sure to tell us WHY they said they wouldn't!. PHDs are designed to hit rocks and no be damaged. With your low powered tractor there is no way that should have happend even if you put it in a pile of boulders. At the risk of starting that same old "where is it actually made" threads, I would bet things like this auger are imported from India or China and are not made of a high grade of steel. What you were doing is exactly what it was designed to do. I think they will replace it. Land Pride needs to spec it better from their supplier. Good luck with it!

 

[ToadHill]

In my opinion, the metal is bad. The crystilin look shown in the photo indicates bad steel. With the turning motion if a drill, when it fails I'd expect to see a tearing longatudinal fracture of the metal

 

[daugen]

thanks, I agree with both of you, but the last time I went on the warpath in this forum about mfg quality, I clearly learned that other normal decent folk think very differently than I, and have different expectations about their equipment. Now here's a case where I'm clearly admitting I used the bit "heavily" but never abusing it, dropping it full force on the rock, but I may have and not even knew I was doing it. So yeah, kinda hazardous working environment. But it's the comment on the fracture graining that interests me; I didn't see any rotational shearing but I know very little here. It just struck me as "coarse" vs. what I thought would be finer in hardened steel.

Ok,fellow PA and NY rock diggers and pickers, have your augers broken occasionally on our local granite and shale? If Land Pride makes a "rock rated" bit, which I assume is like a marine icebreaker, it's meant to break something normally too tough to break, than maybe I'm just using the wrong tool. It was always dirt and rocks, but sometimes lots of rocks.

I have to be careful here and admit I'm not sure the auger bits themselves are from LandPride, so no aspersions cast here, and none meant. These are 30 inch auger bits, and looked well made. But it sure only takes one weak spot.

 

[FredH]

I agree with Toad , If it was a tearing motion in steel , that would be one thing , but that just looks like weak steel . If they will not warranty , maybe try to weld it solid ??? Don't flame me for that suggestion , have only used a phd once and that was a rented one .

Fred H.

 

[daugen]

thanks Fred, don't worry about that, I don't know how to weld..the thing is supposed to be modular, so I'm assuming just the bottom needs to be replaced, but I am quite sure the dealer will handle this. I just ordered a new RTV400 from him, and a new Land Pride field mower. Something tells me I won't get a bill, and that's the way it's supposed to be, or used to be, on little stuff.

 

[paulemar]

Isn't there a shear pin on there that should have broken before the bit? I didn't see a 4" bit listed with that model on the Land Pride website, only 6, 9, & 12. Are you sure that it's a LP brand bit?

 

[Mark Page]

I've never broken a bit on my Danuser. I've broken a few low grade 1/2" shear bolts but never a bit. Of course mine is about 40 years old and built like a tank. The teeth on the ring and pinion must be 1" deep and 3/4" wide.
When you're buying Lands Pride your buying top of the line stuff and should expect a new auger.

 

[daugen]

Are you sure that it's a LP brand bit?

No, I sure am not, it might be another supplier and it's not close for me to check. If the gearbox conked out, no question for me regarding Land Pride's response. But I wonder if this is like driving your car out of the showroom and hitting a big pothole and blowing the tire. Not the dealer's fault...and the tire company will probably tell you to report it to your insurance as a "collision with roadway" or some such nonsense. Mine collided with a rock and lost.

I'll let you know what the response is. If any one has any experience with rock specific augers, I'd sure appreciate some feedback. Thanks. Drew

 

[daugen]

rock augers:
http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/Skid_Steer_Rock_Augers_p/aug-rock.htm

pricey numbers, more than triple a regular one, with some nasty looking carbide points sticking out like a miner's shaft drill. But it looks like it could still break off at exactly the same place, so it's got to get down to metal quality. The teeth didn't break here, the entire assembly broke off, like the first stage of a booster rocket, leaving the larger stage behind...
Instead of jumping from 200 to almost 800 bucks for a specialty auger bit, I'm hoping perhaps another hundred bucks thrown in will get me a tougher replacement. I sure don't want the same thing back, or the same inadequate capability. So to me it's not so much the repair/replacement of it, it's making sure I'm using the right tool. Even Craftsmen and SK break if you abuse them.

This is my first post hole digger, but I knew to go slow and gently. I just got finished paying for it, I sure didn't expect to promptly break it. And I'd really like to not worry about doing it again, and having to pussyfoot around with the phd. But the price of the rock bit is kinda unappetizing. This may get back to the tried and true wisdom of getting what we paid for. Or maybe just one flukey bad casting/forging. The overall phd is compact but very nicely made and ran perfectly, though I did just order the steadying arm which will help find the hole better when it inevitably pops out too far.

I'm not someone who thinks there should be a warning label on the thing saying "do not use on rocks" and if they don't, strict liability applies. But I sure will be guided by the experience when I seek a replacement, like any of us would. If it turns out I got a non LP bit, then this won't surprise me a bit, no pun intended. And what I will have learned is boy I need a higher quality bit and then I start comparing brands. And likely get an LP if I didn't.

 

[Tollster]

Looking at the coarse grain structure, it appears to be a casting, many times if there is any impurities, slag, or laminations in the material it will reduce the tensile strength considerably, I can see a change in the material in the first image between 9 and 11 o団lock, this could be from use after the failure or where the indication propagated from, additionally, and I cannot tell from the photo's, if there are any hair line cracks or perhaps when they turned the threads, they could have left a ridge or some sort of stress riser, in this case it would more than likely be concaved indication, leading to the shearing indication seen hear. It is very common on bolting.

 

[daugen]

thanks, I sure am no metallurgist, but perhaps have watched too much CSI...
I'm wondering, speculating that the ear of the bit got hung up on one side of a rock that was big enough to stop it "dead" because the ear hooked around the rock in just the right way. And therefore due to the rotational force, also pulled the bit away from the shaft, perhaps popping off its head? I don't have the experience here but I expected more damage to the surface at the break
than even what you point out.

Does it "look different" when you break a common stove bolt, a grade 5? grade 8? Iron vs steel? Hardened vs. non-hardened? It's funny, when I first looked at this broken bit my reaction was it looked like iron breaking with all that texture. But if you say this is common, ok. Can't imagine anything but hardened steel in this application, plus any optional carbide or ceramic cutting edges.

 

[Tollster]

thanks, I sure am no metallurgist, but perhaps have watched too much CSI...
I'm wondering, speculating that the ear of the bit got hung up on one side of a rock that was big enough to stop it "dead" because the ear hooked around the rock in just the right way. And therefore due to the rotational force, also pulled the bit away from the shaft, perhaps popping off its head? I don't have the experience here but I expected more damage to the surface at the break
than even what you point out.

Does it "look different" when you break a common stove bolt, a grade 5? grade 8? Iron vs steel? Hardened vs. non-hardened? It's funny, when I first looked at this broken bit my reaction was it looked like iron breaking with all that texture. But if you say this is common, ok. Can't imagine anything but hardened steel in this application, plus any optional carbide or ceramic cutting edges.

Actually it looks the same. Most of the failures we see are from operational stresses, combined with reuse. We typically visually inspect all the threads for any stress cracks prior to reuse, we also inspect all new bolting for thread tears and impurity's. These are required visuals inspections we do on the major components in the nuclear plants. I still feel there is an issue with the material as the grain in not uniform in the first picture, it looks between 7 and 11 o'clock. The other side is very uniform grain.
In bolting we do not see grain with the naked eye, only under magnification when one it fails, but we use grade 8 in many instances and failures are very few do the quality standards, inspections, and scheduled replacement.

 

[daugen]

I looked at the broken off bit piece and didn't see any other cracking. I'll look again and be careful this time, though I don't have one of those nifty lights or testers that find cracks. If I find something, I'll post more pics. Thanks.

 

[Creamer]

As a degreed and licensed engineer this is a pure junk material issue. It is a cast part that has either contamination or way to much silicon and lead in the mix. A part for this application should be a cast steel not nodular iron and the mix and process should be controlled to not allow this type of grain growth. IF this isn't warranted, I would raise he-- to put it mildly. This is why we should not buy the cheap Chinese junk - obviously you did not get what you paid for!

 

[daugen]

maybe these will help, but yes, I think this is just a weak link in a good machine.

 

[Creamer]

In looking at the break it is not a twist failure or crack propagation. It is an all-at-once due to impact on a metal that is not made to take impact.

 

[daugen]

scheduled replacement.

I spent some time away from my core career in insurance, including one dabbling with a good friend who asked me to help grow his business, was putting in Schlumberger measuring instrumentation for predictive maintenance purposes, mostly on rotational equipment and much of that GE gas turbines. My friend was the engineer, I was the gopher, but I learned about critical mission maintenance and found it fascinating. Not if it will break, but only when... And if the vibration stays under a certain level, all is well. But over time wear sets in, temperature change, operational stress, and I guess what I can only call metal fatigue sets in. Big business out there trying to figure out just when that expensive part will break and how to change it only on the prior shift change...

So when you say "scheduled replacement" in the same context as tractor equipment, it brings up a whole range of interesting questions. Should those grade 5 bolts I installed ten years ago in my hitch or plow be changed out? Maybe not if they were grade 8? I sure don't know, and my assumption is that in normal operation grade bolts don't wear out, other than from being physically worn which we can inspect and see. But what about what we can't see? None of us are paranoid enough to expect moon mission fail safe stuff on our tractors, but, for example, I'd sure like the pins in my ROPS to work, in just about any situation... Anyone who sails an older boat knows they have to inspect their metal lines (halyards?) carefully, whatever they are called.

The most fascinating place I ever visited was one of the hydro electric plants, I believe Conowingo, where the machinery was, I think, about a hundred years old. Huge old brass gauges, next to strip recorders and sensors, and a joy to see. Truly machinery made to last a long long time. Just like the older tractors. And perhaps the new, but time will tell.

So somewhere between my half hour life on my auger bit and a hundred years on giant gears in a dam, is the reasonable life of the product. And not knowing what was reasonable was why I posted this. If it's common to break these things, then I want to make sure I tone down my expectations in dealing with the dealer, who may or may not eat some cost here. But likely not, I hope. I also bought a 12 inch auger from the same company, but I couldn't imagine trying to dig with that thing in this rocky soil. It was bought to plant small trees elsewhere.

 

[gengine]

Is it possible this is a cast iron guide point? My leinbach PHD has a bolt on cast iron point. Like this: CountyLine Auger Bolt-In Tip - 2100301 | Tractor Supply Company I broke one last year, and had to replace it. Tractor Supply also has the screw in type.

 

[rsewill]

Where I used to work (a trucking company) we had a chart on the wall from Rockwell. Rows and rows of photographs of busted rear end gears. All were broken due to end user action and the chart was to show what the damage would look like due to particular end user action. Not one photograph of a bad casting, therefore no broken gear was ever due to a manufacturer's defect.

Good luck on getting a replacement.