Cracked Slab

[firedog]

I put a new roof the house about two years ago and had noticed some rot in the upper plate and header where the rafters met up with the chimney. Was unable to access it from the top so I finally got around to pulling down the fireplace face brick and started working the wall.
The plate and header have pulled apart as well as some gaps around the storm door. I was still convinced it was the brick that had contracted from the drought and nothing more. It wasn't until a threw the level down on it that I felt like Rick Perry in a debate, Oops!
I've contacted several foundation repair companies and have been doing some research, but am still uneasy about the whole ordeal. Anybody have experience in this area?

 

[CurlyDave]

1. Pictures are necessary.

2. If foundation repair is required, look at alternatives. A masonry fireplace and chimney are very heavy. I have a very nice gas burning fireplace constructed of sheet metal with a metal chimney inside a framed enclosure with rock veneer on the outside.

Looks really good, a lot better than it sounds, and I didn't even need a foundation under it -- the minimal load gets transferred to the house foundation. The foundation repair guys won't tell you about this kind of solution.

 

[slowzuki]

Yeah, chances are the fireplace didn't have the proper footing under it.

 

[dmccarty]

I have never heard of brick contracting or expanding due to moisture.

My guess is soil expansion/contraction due to moisture level or as slowzuki said, the footer was not sized correctly, and/or built over improperly compacted soil.

Later,
Dan

 

[firedog]

Yes, brick does expand and contract with the seasonal changes, that's why they put expansion joints in brick walls(except for guy that bricked my house. I had to come back later and cut the joints in).

The fireplace has plenty of footing, same as the perimeter wall.
I don't think tearing down the chimney is a reasonable solution. Might as well take the brick off the rest of the house, too.
I guess I really didn't bring out the point that the wall separation is occurring across the north end of the house not just problems at the fireplace. With a 4' level running N-S across the north end of the house, I have to raise the end of level about 3/8" to bring it true.

I've been reading up on expansive soil, and I am located in a high clay area.
As soon as I get my laser level back from my Son-in-law, I'll check to see how bad the actual "drop" is.

I guess my question now is: pilings or piers? Companies that do pilings state that it the "latest & greatest" technology but I'm somewhat skeptical. Having been in and around construction most of my working life, I've never seen pilings used in building foundations, just bell-bottom piers. I've only seen pilings used in bridge construction.

 

[Egon]

From the sounds of things a consultant designed solution might be one way to go.:thumbsup:


Bricks can absorb moisture and crack when frozen or If heated they may have a tendency to spall off as the water turns to steam!:thumbsup:

 

[LWG]

I'm not completely sure I understand the issue, but I've had slab-jacking done when a concrete footer settled under a brick column that supported a deck.

 

[ustmd]

I've been reading up on expansive soil, and I am located in a high clay area.
As soon as I get my laser level back from my Son-in-law, I'll check to see how bad the actual "drop" is.

I guess my question now is: pilings or piers? Companies that do pilings state that it the "latest & greatest" technology but I'm somewhat skeptical. Having been in and around construction most of my working life, I've never seen pilings used in building foundations, just bell-bottom piers. I've only seen pilings used in bridge construction.

You are on the Blackland Prairie with the rest of us.

Because of the extreme drought, foundations have been moving/cracking all over Central Texas this year. At my barn, I had the soil contract 6-8 inches away and down from the foundation, so I feel your pain. When I built my barn and house, I got structural engineer to do my foundation drawings because of the movement.

A couple of years ago, my neighbor, house had dropped 6.5 inches (high to low) over 10 years. They ended up doing 56 30 ft piers under their foundation. They talked to just about every company in town. They finally hired an independent structural engineer. He recommended piers over pilings. His concerns were:

(1) as they drive each section of piling in, there is no way to ensure that the "stack" of pilings is perpendicular to the foundation
(2) because the piling sections are not connected, they do not provide any lateral strength. If there is any lateral movement in the soil, the pilings can shift out of alignment

I am not sure if his points were valid, but it seems reasonable. Also, the company that did the neighbor's foundation offered a lifetime transferable warranty (most of the other companies only offered a non-transferable warranty) on the leveling. As the company had been in business for 30 years, my neighbor thought they would be around to honer it.


Also, all of the companies that my neighbors dealt with, did a free evaluation of the house, with measurements.

 

[dmccarty]

Yes, brick does expand and contract with the seasonal changes, that's why they put expansion joints in brick walls(except for guy that bricked my house. I had to come back later and cut the joints in).
...

Your first post said "drought" in regards to brick movement which I took to mean moisture content of the brick not thermal expansion.

Our house does not have any expansion joints that I know about and we do not have any problems at all. We could have them but not be able to see them depending on the method used by the mason. I know the houses I saw being built decades back did not use expansion joints but that was in KY.

I did a bit of research and it looks like joints should be every 30ish feet or so. On the other hand I saw some conversations from home inspectors in NC who have never see brick expansion joints in their area while guys in Texas have seen them. Some areas in NC do have very expansive clay similar to areas in Texas.

I would pay for a structural engineer's opinion. It should be cheap for them to see the problem and make a recommendation. A coworker had a settling problem years ago and had a engineer look at the problem. I think it cost a hundred dollars or so to have the engineer see the problem and design a solution. The solution was another hundred dollars or so for a 4x4, gravel and a bit of concrete. The engineer should have an idea on what it would cost to fix the problem and maybe have a list of people to use.

Later,
Dan

 

[deerefan]

I put a new roof the house about two years ago and had noticed some rot in the upper plate and header where the rafters met up with the chimney. Was unable to access it from the top so I finally got around to pulling down the fireplace face brick and started working the wall.
The plate and header have pulled apart as well as some gaps around the storm door. I was still convinced it was the brick that had contracted from the drought and nothing more. It wasn't until a threw the level down on it that I felt like Rick Perry in a debate, Oops!
I've contacted several foundation repair companies and have been doing some research, but am still uneasy about the whole ordeal. Anybody have experience in this area?

How well was the dirt compacted prior to forming and pouring your slab and footings? A 95% compaction ratio is ideal. What is the steel design in your slab? Was the steel or mesh tied up, not allowed to lay at the bottom of the pour?

 

[EddieWalker]

I put a new roof the house about two years ago and had noticed some rot in the upper plate and header where the rafters met up with the chimney. Was unable to access it from the top so I finally got around to pulling down the fireplace face brick and started working the wall.
The plate and header have pulled apart as well as some gaps around the storm door. I was still convinced it was the brick that had contracted from the drought and nothing more. It wasn't until a threw the level down on it that I felt like Rick Perry in a debate, Oops!
I've contacted several foundation repair companies and have been doing some research, but am still uneasy about the whole ordeal. Anybody have experience in this area?

Soil moves because of moisture in the soil. Different types of soil hold more water then others, and the degree of compaction of the soild will decide how much moisture gets into the soil. Most people blame dry conditions for cracked foundations and cracks in their walls, but that is rarely the case. What usually happens is the soil gets really wet and then the ground freezes. Just like an ice cube in a tray, when when soil freezes, it moves things. I believe it's called Frost Heave. It's why homes up north have basements. To avoid or fight this movement, you have to have a foundation that goes below the point where the ground freezes.

You need to post pics of the damage to the foundation, but even then, it's just guesswork on our part. Keeping your foundation dry and making sure that water slopes away from the house is very important.

Every soil type has a load rating. It can hold so much weight. A solid brick fireplace is very heavy and it needs a very large footing to support it's weight. The soil under it needs to be virgin, or highly compacted. Compacting soil is a science and the only way to know if it's done right is with a specialized tester. Don't confuse hard dirt with compacted dirt!!!!

Just about every foundation repair company is a scam. They are by far the worse of the worse in the trades. You need a soil engineer to dertermine what is going on, and how deep and wide your footing needs to be in a repair situation. You can always dig it out yourself and go crazy over doing it, but you are not going to find a repair company that will do this for you. Anchors and cables do nothing to correct the problem. They just mask it and help hold your house in place, but the inablity of the soil to support the load or movement from frost heave is always the problem, and it's what need to be addressed if you are to fix it.

Depending on how old the house is and what kind of money you want to spend, it might be just as well to tear down the chimney and build a new one. You don't have to have brick. A stainless steel one is lighter and easier to build. You can frame around it and put up brick vineer for the same look, or go to rock or Hardi lap siding.

There are options, and I would highly caution you agaist hiring a foundation repair company to do anything.

Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

Yes, brick does expand and contract with the seasonal changes, that's why they put expansion joints in brick walls(except for guy that bricked my house. I had to come back later and cut the joints in).

I've never heard of bricks on a house needing expansion joints. There are a lot of brick houses and office buildings here that do not have them. In fact, I've inspected quite a few brick structures and never seen an expansion joint. I wouldn't put them in, and I sure wouldn't have them cut into an existing building. I can't imagine how that would help anything, and I would expect it to cause quite a few issues down the road.

I'm not sure what you mean by an expansion joint in a brick wall? Are you refering to it being built in sections to allow for movement in the soil?

Do you have a link that supports your view that bricks expand and need expansion joints?

How did you compensate for the loss of integrity by cutting the bricks?

What did you do to keep water and bugs out?

Eddie

 

[JB4310]

I put a new roof the house about two years ago and had noticed some rot in the upper plate and header where the rafters met up with the chimney. Was unable to access it from the top so I finally got around to pulling down the fireplace face brick and started working the wall.
The plate and header have pulled apart as well as some gaps around the storm door. I was still convinced it was the brick that had contracted from the drought and nothing more. It wasn't until a threw the level down on it that I felt like Rick Perry in a debate, Oops!
I've contacted several foundation repair companies and have been doing some research, but am still uneasy about the whole ordeal. Anybody have experience in this area?

Way too little info to get an accurate idea of what the problem is, and I've been working on masonry chimneys for 30 years.

Brick does not contract to any degree that could be noticed in a chimney.
You already ruled that out I know.

Sounds like, and this is assuming we are talking about a chimney on an outside wall, there were no wall ties installed. these are metal straps laid between the courses of brick, every couple of feet in height, and fastened to the wall as the chimney is being built. With out wall ties, even chimneys with adequate foundations can move away from the wall. That movement will always be away and keep building a greater gap. We have strapped chimney back to the house plenty of times, to stabilise them and prevent further movement.

You could spend money on beefing up the foundation, but you can't move the chimney back. And you will still need to "tie" the chimney to the house, now with some type of external strap.

Those little ties are worth there weight in gold, I've seen chimneys that pulled away from houses with perfectly good foundations, for lack of wall ties. And I've seen chimneys stay in perfect place with very poor foundations, due to the use of wall ties.

I'm making alot of assumptions here, I hope I'm not out in left field.
My idea is based on my experiences over the years.

JB