Creek Culvert

[TNhobbyfarmer]

I have a creek that runs through my place. It only flows during wet periods but can have a pretty rigorous flow after a heavy rain. I cross the creek on my tractor without any problem whether it is dry or flowing.

I want to contract with the local co-op to bring and spread a load of lime. To get to where I want it, they will have to cross the creek. The opposite bank is fairly steep and probably too treacherous for them to be willing to try to get a heavy truckload of lime across.

My thought is to lay plastic culvert in the middle of the creek and fill on both sides and over the top to form a crossing place that will be less daunting. Do you think two 10' sections of 18" pipe laid side by side in the middle will be an acceptable solution? All thoughts and comments will be appreciated.

 

[tallyho8]

You might check specifications with the pipe company to see weight loads at specified burial depths. A large truck of lime could weigh 40 tons or more. Remember, a 24" pipe could handle about the same volume of water as two 18" and be much sturdier at the same time if buried at the same depth. The fill on the sides of the pipe are what gives it it's strength and must be packed and solid.

Regulations for putting a culvert in a creek may be different for temporary usage rather than permanent usage.

I'm sure you will get many more reccomendations shortly.

 

[TNhobbyfarmer]

You might check specifications with the pipe company to see weight loads at specified burial depths. A large truck of lime could weigh 40 tons or more. Remember, a 24" pipe could handle about the same volume of water as two 18" and be much sturdier at the same time if buried at the same depth. The fill on the sides of the pipe are what gives it it's strength and must be packed and solid.

Regulations for putting a culvert in a creek may be different for temporary usage rather than permanent usage.

I'm sure you will get many more reccomendations shortly.

I found the pipe at a Rural King which is close to where I intend to use it. They only sell 20' lengths, so my plan was to cut the 20 footer into two 10' lengths. One concern I have is the length. Do you think 10' is giving enough room to spare on each end for a large lime truck?

 

[workinallthetime]

i have had some experience with issues like this at several different places.
i found that a bridge over the small wet wether creek at my house worked great but i dont know your situation. I have also installed 36" plastic culvert pipe on a job i was doing. the plastic was very easy to handle but the cost was insane, I think the total feet of the 2 sections was about 30 feet and the cost for the stuff was about 2500.00. I have also built several low water crossings using free concrete culverts, large rocks and bags of concrete. that situation had steep banks on both sides that i cut down to get to the creek and work. You have to think about erosion when you place anything in a creek so going with a small pipe which causes the water to swirl around the entrance and shoot out the other end will cause problems at both ends.

how far across is the crossing
how deep is the crossing
do you have access to rock for "rip rap" at the up stream side
post a pic if you can

 

[TNhobbyfarmer]

i have had some experience with issues like this at several different places.
i found that a bridge over the small wet wether creek at my house worked great but i dont know your situation. I have also installed 36" plastic culvert pipe on a job i was doing. the plastic was very easy to handle but the cost was insane, I think the total feet of the 2 sections was about 30 feet and the cost for the stuff was about 2500.00. I have also built several low water crossings using free concrete culverts, large rocks and bags of concrete. that situation had steep banks on both sides that i cut down to get to the creek and work. You have to think about erosion when you place anything in a creek so going with a small pipe which causes the water to swirl around the entrance and shoot out the other end will cause problems at both ends.

how far across is the crossing
how deep is the crossing
do you have access to rock for "rip rap" at the up stream side
post a pic if you can

1) About 12' across
2) About 1-2' of water when it is running strong
3) Yes I have access to riprap
4) I do not currently have a pic. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I will be able to take a pic.

 

[txdon]

When I got my lime, I ordered from the local fertilizer supplier. They dumped a large load near the front of my property and the Fertilizer Co. sent a spreader truck and a tractor with a FEL. (This is before I had my tractor.) The tractor loaded up the spreader truck. This truck was a big big wheeled truck that went up and down my pond dams, places that I would not even think of driving my tractor. You might want to ask your co op if they or a company around there has a spreader truck with big wide tires, you might not have to do anything to the creek.

 

[EddieWalker]

There is a rule of thumb for how much material you need above a culvert to get it's full strength. The culvert itself doesn't have very much strength, but the dirt all around it changes that and turns it into something very, very strong. The secret is packing the dirt all around the culvert and having enough above it.

Somebody might know this for sure, but I think you need half the width of the culvert in fill above it. So an 18 inch culvert will need a minimum of 9 inches of dirt above it.

With a 45 degree angle, your ten foot wide culvert will only have 7 1/2 feet of flat area to drive on. This is not enough and will lead to problems.

Even if you could build it up straight on the ends, you are not allowing any margin of error.

Anther thing to remember is that a large pipe will flow more water than two smaller ones. One 24 inch culvert will handle more water than two 18 inchers side by side.

From what you describe on you creekbed, I would think that a 36 inch culvert should be a minimum, and even then, expect it to wash away during an extreme storm sometime in your lifetime.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[workinallthetime]

http://www.cpp-pipe.com/pdf/CPP_Book_in_PDF.pdf

here is some good info on plastic culverts, a little technical but notice the picture where it says 35000 lbs per axel and look how they have placed it. 12 feet is a little big to build a bridge over w/o major cost. The stuff is real easy to work with, just expensive but then again not anymore than concrete ones.

 

[CurlyDave]

Somebody might know this for sure, but I think you need half the width of the culvert in fill above it. So an 18 inch culvert will need a minimum of 9 inches of dirt above it.

The number I remember is either 12" or half the diameter of the culvert, whichever is greater. The material of the culvert does not matter, plastic, galvanized, or concrete.

I have seen a lot of driveways with 36-48" culverts and less than 12" of fill on top, but I don't think anyone has ever put a heavy load on them.

I would be inclined to go with a 20' piece of the largest culvert you can afford. The idea of two pieces side-by-side is not really going to work that well.

 

[dirtworksequip]

hobbyfarmer, you are likely going to need at least 20 foot of culvert no matter what size you end up going with. Remember that as you put in fill around and over top of the culvert the dirt fill will be coming in at an angle not up vertically towards the center of the culvert which lessens the road width.The only way to bring up the fill vertically is to conlstruct a headwall. Using one culvert is always better than two. Two will tend to plug up with debris easier than one. Two feet of water is a good bit of water for even two 18 inch culverts, but that depends on the width of the stream and how much watershed area is above the point of use. Pics would be a great help. Don't install too small a culvert and think you are saving money.Do it right the first time. A big rain will washout your fill and culvert if not properly sized to handle the flow. All your time and effort will be washed downstream.

 

[dirtworksequip]

It may be easier to cut the banks on both sides of the creek to construct a creek crossing rather than try and put culvert and fill. That will depend on if there is a good bottom on the creek itself. It will need to be firm enough to allow for the heavy lime truck to run on without sinking. In other words.........a rock bottom.

With a 12 foot width in the stream and 1 to 2 feet of water I'm not ever sure a 36 inch culvert would handle the flow. The last road I helped a friend put in we used two 48 inch culverts and the stream was not near that wide. Always OVERSIZE what you think you will need. Another RULE: You usually need twice the lenght you think you need too.

 

[weldingisfun]

Go big. Don't get me wrong but it sounds like you are thinking short term only. Doing all this work just to get a truck loaded with lime over your creekbed? If you are going to do it, do it permanent.
I installed a little 12 inch culvert in my seasonal creek to get into where I finally build my house. It worked great for three years. Then a developer came in and channeled the runoff of nearly 15 acres and 20 new houses into that little creek. It washed out.
After much complaining and threatening, the developer pit in an 18 inch. It washed out the very next rain, three weeks after the install. I made them come back and add two more 18 inch pipes. Wish I had been able to read this thread 18 months ago. I would have had them put in a 36 inch from the "gitgo".
I'm just waiting for the next "turd floater", as my neighbor calls them, to hit to see if my road gets washed out again.
Bottomline, Dirtworksequip, think of this as a permanent crossing, do it right and as everyone seems to be saying go as big as you can afford.

Workinallthetime, thanks for the Website. I've been looking for that kind of information. Looks like I have a need to put in two more culverts on my road, thanks to that same *%#@ developer.

For those who may be wondering about building codes and such. They don't exist in the non-established areas of central Texas. The developers here do as they *%#@ well please.

 

[EddieWalker]

Just to clarify, I said a 36 inch as a blind recomendation. I have no clue what the water is like coming down that creek and very well could be way undersized in recmomending a 36 inch culvert. It could very well need a much larger one.

Thanks Dave on clarifying how much fill you need. I thought 9 inches on a 18 inch culvert sounded thin, but was too lazy to look it up. hahaha 12 inches or more would be much, much better.

One other suggestion is to watch the classifieds. I always check Classifieds - Classified Ads - Advertising - Used Cars - New Cars - Homes for Sale - Real Estate for my area and the surrounding area for things I know I'll need. Culverts, gates, fence posts and things like that. I have a list of keywords that I type in and do a quick search for. If you have the time, most everything comes up for sale.

I also search the local papers online classifieds, ebay and craigslist.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[drssg]

We went with a 20' culvert to go over our small creek, and I wouldn't want it any narrower. We also choose one larger pipe, instead of multiple smaller pipes. We ordered a metal pipe with flat section on the bottom. It looks more like a half circle with a flat bottom. This allows for more water flow with less height, and we have less issues with clogging than we would with multiple smaller culverts.

Our creek runs under a public road near our property, so I ordered the same size pipe for my drive.

 

[TNhobbyfarmer]

Thanks for all the good advice. It always pays to poll the experts here on TBN. As is usually the case, my first instinct on how to do this has a lot of flaws. I will take a pic next time I am at the farm and post it.

Another thought; do county road depts. have old culverts that they pull out from jobs they are working? I'm wondering if a campaign donation might get me a used one. Anyone ever try this approach?

 

[patrick_g]

Please don't penalize me for piling on! Don't even consider using a short culvert, it is a BAD idea which will fail if the whole thing isn't covered in concrete. With dirt fill you need to leave the 20 footer a 20 footer. If you use two pipes they shouldn't be placed side by side and should, at a minimum, be separated by a space as large as the top cover of fill is deep but more is better.

IMHO if you want this to last through a period of runoff you should be looking for a larger pipe, maybe a 30 inch.

The largest plastic drain sold locally here is 16 inch The capacity of the 30 inch is nearly 4 times the 16 inch. Do you have space for 4 of the 16 inchers? The 16 inchers can be close stacked in a diamond shape if they are grouted in with concrete to form a single structure (with few or no voids.)

If the crossing is truly temporary, just use dirt without a drain. Fill it in as required and pack it just prior to delivery and remove it after. A substandard drain will wash out anyway leaving you with wasted time and material. So either do it to last or do it TEMPORARILY.

Pat

 

[m7040]

I have a similar situation with a creek flowing normally at a 2 ft wide flow 6 inches or so deep and during rains much more. Have to cross the creek to get to the other side. I used to go through an area that was level but got too soft to cross. So was looking for an alternate approach and found another section that had to be built up 2 ft on one side for a distance of 150 ft and then on the other side it was too high and steep to drive up. So filled in the low area with the FEL about 15 ft wide placed some big flat rocks in the creek to drive on and then cut down the high side and made a ramp with a gentle slope. Looks to be working for me and it cost only my time and fuel. When pricing the culverts it convinced me that preparing the approaches to the creek was the way to go.

 

[mocassincreekranch]

Been in the same boat as you. After much thought I cut both creek bank's down and poured a 8ft x 12ft concrete pad in the bottom of the creek,poured in 4x8 sections using sacrete and a wheelbarrow. This has survived very heavy water flows and no worry of washing out. Just another option.

 

[Defective]

If you have a supply of trees, you could always make a wooden driving surface in the creek. Cut enough logs to make a platform as wide as the creek. Chain them together so they will lay lengthwise in the creek bed & anchor them on either side. When the truck is gone, drag them out, block them & split for firewood. On the other hand, I've left a few of these in place for over a decade and found them to still be functional.

 

[gemini5362]

Go big. Don't get me wrong but it sounds like you are thinking short term only. Doing all this work just to get a truck loaded with lime over your creekbed? If you are going to do it, do it permanent.
I installed a little 12 inch culvert in my seasonal creek to get into where I finally build my house. It worked great for three years. Then a developer came in and channeled the runoff of nearly 15 acres and 20 new houses into that little creek. It washed out.
After much complaining and threatening, the developer pit in an 18 inch. It washed out the very next rain, three weeks after the install. I made them come back and add two more 18 inch pipes. Wish I had been able to read this thread 18 months ago. I would have had them put in a 36 inch from the "gitgo".
I'm just waiting for the next "turd floater", as my neighbor calls them, to hit to see if my road gets washed out again.
Bottomline, Dirtworksequip, think of this as a permanent crossing, do it right and as everyone seems to be saying go as big as you can afford.

Workinallthetime, thanks for the Website. I've been looking for that kind of information. Looks like I have a need to put in two more culverts on my road, thanks to that same *%#@ developer.

For those who may be wondering about building codes and such. They don't exist in the non-established areas of central Texas. The developers here do as they *%#@ well please.

You might check into the legal aspect of what they do. It is grounds for a pretty good lawsuit if you can prove that they have rechanneled water that is flooding your property