CS2410 won't start!

[Jgilbert]

I have a cs2410 with only 119 hours on it. When I turn the switch, lights come on including glow plug which turn off like normal. I also hear the clicking sound. When I continue to turn to start,it does nothing but the clicking keeps going.

So far here's what I have done.

- taken switch out, tested with ohm meter, didn't get any continuity on start but all others.
- took switch back to dealer to get a new one. Installed it and still won't start. Tells me either switch was good or now something else is wrong.
- battery gives me 12.04V on meter. Solenoid gives me 12.04V as well.
- tried to boost using my truck, nothing.
- tried to cross solenoid to jump starter. Get spark but no starter turns.
- checked start and engine fuses, good.
- of course it is in neutral.

I'm lost at what it could be now. I haven't been able to take dash off as I do not have a steering wheel puller to do that so I'm just squeezing my hands in to work behind the firewall.

I'm not a mechanic and my dealer is not close by.

Thanks for the help. I need my tractor for snow removal now

 

[ShowroomShine]

Seat safety, PTO safety, gear safety etc. Your problem sounds like a safety, check out the seat first. I know on mine I have to be seated fully on the seat for it to start.

 

[ritcheyvs]

...gives me 12.04V on meter. Solenoid gives me 12.04V as well. ...

Well, 12.04 V is a bit low (should be 12.5 or better) but maybe the battery is just s bit low.

.... - tried to boost using my truck, nothing. ...

This suggests the battery isn't the main problem (assuming good jumper cables). Then again, maybe the jumper cables just couldn't supply enough current.

... - tried to cross solenoid to jump starter. Get spark but no starter turns. ...

Assuming you mean you jumped from the big terminal to the small terminal on the starter solenoid, this is conclusive. Quit messing with the starter logic, fuses, and safeties. You have one of three problems: (1) bad battery cable (positive or ground), (2) bad battery, or (3) bad starter (or solenoid). Hopefully it's a cable (or cable ground connection), which is cheapest and easiest to fix.

Here's what to do. Get a helper or long meter leads to watch the voltage across the actual battery terminals as you attempt to crank the starter. If the battery is good, the battery voltage should not go below about 9-10 volts. Assuming the battery checks OK, measure the voltage between the starter big terminal and the engine block as you attempt to crank the starter. It should also stay above 9-10 volts. If it doesn't you have a cable problem. If this voltage at the starter stays high (say 10 volts or better) the starter (or start solenoid) is bad.

I should add that there were several reports of bad battery cables which failed under the insulation so the cable still appeared fine. There were also some problems where the ground cable connects to the engine and where the cables connect to the battery terminal connectors.

The quick test for the ground cable is to bypass it with a jumper cable (battery negative to bare metal on the chassis or engine). You can do the same on the positive cable (jump battery positive to the big starter terminal) but be VERY careful not to short battery positive to any other part of the tractor.

 

[Jgilbert]

Thanks for the help so far.

This is the update:

Battery now at 11.90V likely from trying to. Fix it for a while. 11.9V at solenoid on starter (on red and frame).

Turn ignition battery. Goes down to 11.45 V
With solenoid, goes down to 11.45V as well

Checked start relay. Should be 84 ohms I get 74.2 not sure if that drop is still ok.

And by crossing i did mean from red pole on start solenoid to frame.

I checked the engine stop solenoid. I cant measure because it is contracted inside. I turn ignition on,stays the same. Tried to test volts on wire coming in with meter, meter all over the place so possible wiring issue thete?

 

[Jgilbert]

Also checked neutral safety has continuity and pto safety is depressed.

 

[ritcheyvs]

... Battery now at 11.90V likely from trying to. Fix it for a while. 11.9V at solenoid on starter (on red and frame).

Turn ignition battery. Goes down to 11.45 V
With solenoid, goes down to 11.45V as well

Checked start relay. Should be 84 ohms I get 74.2 not sure if that drop is still ok. ...

I think you are saying you have 11.9v at the battery and the big terminal on the starter with the switch off. These voltages should be the same (those two points directly connected by battery cable) unless a LOT of current is flowing from the battery. But 11.9v is low indicating your battery needs to be charged. I assume the 11,45 volts was measured with the key switch on and the glow plugs heating? The voltages should drop somewhat lower with the glow plugs drawing current so that sounds normal for a battery with low charge. I assume you measured the coil resistance of the relay; if so, 84 ohms vs 74 ohms is not significant.

...
And by crossing i did mean from red pole on start solenoid to frame.
...

What? You shorted the big terminal on the starter solenoid to chassis ground!!! WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. That's the same as shorting across the battery! The correct test is to jump from the big terminal on the starter solenoid to the small starter solenoid terminal. That bypasses all the start logic and safety interlocks and should spin the starter if the battery, cables, and starter are OK.

... I checked the engine stop solenoid. I cant measure because it is contracted inside. ...

Don't even worry about the stop solenoid until you sort out the starter. Frankly, if you can hear the stop solenoid click (usually quite pronounced) when you turn the key switch on and off, the stop solenoid is probably OK.

Scott

 

[TJP89]

Your physical symptoms sound just like when I forget to depress the clutch, everything works, turn to crank, nothing.

The battery is a little low, but by no means dead, so it's probably not that. Charge the battery and see if that makes a difference though. properly check the starter, but I would guess it's not that. Solenoid seems to be working. I forget if there is a clutch on your tractor, if there is check that switch, as well as the gear switch.

If it's not those, check wiring to the starter, I had a tire chain cut the negative lead from the battery on my lawn tractor once, took me awhile to figure out why it wouldn't start.

If none of the above works, its probably componet related.

If your tractor is still under warranty (should be if bought new), take it to the dealer and let them worry about it.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I just uploaded this to show the right way to test the starter (and battery and cables) by bypassing the start logic and safeties:

http://brute-force test

 

[Gary in NJ]

Great tutorial. Well written and illustrated.

 

[Jgilbert]

Update.

For some reason, the glow plug no longer lights. No idea why as it was working last time I tried the tractor but nothing now.

Still won't turn with key.

As someone mentioned, I was able to jump the solenoid with a wire from the red pole to the black wire harness. Now the engine turns, it does not start but it turns. I am told this bypasses the safeties.

So now what?

I've checked continuity on the gear and pto safety and both give me continuity so I think it means good. Seat safety, not really sure how to test that.

I appreciate all the help, been over 2 weeks now, really need this started.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I think the OP said the starter will crank the engine if properly jumped at the starter. This means a there is some problem with the start logic and safeties for the starter. Assuming this model has a start relay, the next step would be to see if it will crank by jumping the big pins in the start relay connector (with connector unplugged from relay). He could also verify 12v at the one of the smaller coil pins when the switch is turned to crank. Beyond that, a schematic is needed.

On other Kioti tractors, the safeties are in the ground path of the start relay coil. This may include safety switches on the clutch (if any), PTO, seat, and shift neutral; or more elaborate electronic controls via a cruise module. Without a schematic this is impossible to advise.

The Op never said if he charged the battery but a low battery or previous troubleshooting (like shorting the starter to ground) may account for the lack of the glow light.

About all I can advise is to (1) find out why it doesn't crank and fix that, (2) check that the stop solenoid (assuming there is one) actually retracts when the switch is on, (3) check that there is actually voltage at the glow plugs when set to glow, and (4) check that some fuel is going to the injectors while cranking.

 

[ritcheyvs]

duplicate deleted

 

[Jgilbert]

Well, here is the workshop manual page for the start relay. Which "big pins" do I jump? When jumping, key on only or does it have to be on start?

Start relay itself checks ok except ohms reading is 72.9 compared to 85 in manual.

I have my glow plug back, i had the glow plug relay disconnected for some reason. Everything back up and connected.

Battery is at 12.27V charged.

I tried jumping 85 and 86. Nothing, no spark nothing. Tried key on and also key start.

Double checked neutral safety. I have continuity so it is neutral and ok.

Pto safety connection is on so should be good.

No idea how to test seat safety, nothing in workshop manual about seat safety.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Well, here is the workshop manual page for the start relay. Which "big pins" do I jump? When jumping, key on only or does it have to be on start?

Start relay itself checks ok except ohms reading is 72.9 compared to 85 in manual.

I have my glow plug back, i had the glow plug relay disconnected for some reason. Everything back up and connected.

Battery is at 12.27V charged.

I tried jumping 85 and 86. Nothing, no spark nothing. Tried key on and also key start.

Double checked neutral safety. I have continuity so it is neutral and ok.

Pto safety connection is on so should be good.

No idea how to test seat safety, nothing in workshop manual about seat safety.

Jgilbert: Good thing you sent that CS schematic. The start logic (control circuit) is COMPLETELY unlike any CK or DK I have ever seen. So much so that I wonder if the schematic is correct, but I'll take it at face value for now. Also, it does not show what is connected to the node "circle EG" but I assume it is powered from the "on" contact of the key switch because it must be powered for the tractor to start or run.

Instead of jumping pins at the start solenoid connector, do the following (you may need a helper for the second step):
1. With the key on, the PTO off, and tranny in neutral, measure the voltage at start relay connector pin 85 (should be 12v)
2. While someone turns the key to crank, measure the voltage at start relay connector pin 30 (should be 12v)
The result from these two tests should tell where to look next.

There is a bypass jumper test you could run: Install a jumper between pins 30 and 87 of the start relay connector and then turn the key to crank. That should engage the starter if the key switch, start fuse, and wiring are OK.

DO NOT jump between pins 85 and 86; that creates a dead short in place of the relay coil. If you jump 85 and 86 and turn the key (which you apparently did) there is a good chance you burned out the start diode or whatever fuse supplied node "circle EG" in the diagram (unless you were fortunate enough to have the PTO on or tranny in gear).

Supplemental: According to the schematic, the seat switch must be closed (seat occupied) or the stop solenoid will shut off IP fuel to the engine unless in neutral with PTO off (in effect a dead man engine kill switch). As far as I know, CKs or DKs do NOT have a seat switch. According to the schematic, the seat switch does not effect the engine crank function. But the text in the manual says the seat switch must be closed for the engine to crank; I think this is an error (it should have said neutral switch). Given the korean-to-english language issues, I have more confidence in the schematic than the words.

 

[Jgilbert]

Your #1: I could not get a voltage reading. Maybe I did it wrong.
Your#2: same.

Jumped 30 and 87 and tractor started! It died when I got off the seat so for some reason the safety switch kicked in.

I feel we are getting closer, I'm guessing seat safety somehow but then again I know nothing about mechanics and electrics.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Jgilbert: If you look at your schematic, I'll recap what's happening. The "circle EG" node is powered when the key switch is on (although I can't tell exactly how from this schematic). Electrical current flows straight down through the seat switch and energizes the engine stop solenoid, this allows the injection pump to send fuel to the engine. When you turn the key to crank with a jumper across pins 30-87 current goes from the key switch, through the fuse, across the jumper, and into the starter solenoid. And the engine cranks and starts.

Now, if everything worked correctly, current could also flow through the PTO switch (if the PTO is disengaged), through the neutral switch (if in neutral), and through the DIODE SF to keep the stop solenoid energized, even after you got off the seat and the seat switch opened. This didn't work so we know there is a problem in that path through the PTO and neutral switches.

You checked the PTO and neutral switches before so I assume you know where they are.

(1) Go first to the PTO switch. Unplug the connector. Turn the key switch to on. Then measure the voltage (to chassis ground) at both contacts in the tractor-side connector. One of then should be 12v and one near zero.

(2) If that checks out, go to the neutral switch and repeat the same test. Again, one contact should be 12v and one near ground. If you don't see the 12v, first check that the PTO clutch was disengaged. Then check the PTO switch adjustment to insure the switch is closed when the PTO is disengaged and open when engaged. Then check the neutral switch adjustment to be sure it is closed in neutral and open otherwise.

An alternative method would be to unplug and bypass these (PTO and neutral) switches one at a time and jumper the two contacts on the tractor side of the connector. If that fixes the problem there is something wrong with that particular switch (it may be bad or out of adjustment).

If all these things check out I think it's back to a problem with a wiring harness or wiring harness connector. I think you lucked out when you shorted pins 85 and 86; the open circuit that's causing your problem (probably) also prevented damage when you did that bad short test.

If your service manual shows the wiring harnesses and connectors, look for any connectors in the path between the PTO and neutral switch and between the neutral switch and start relay. Some of the newer manuals to include this type of detail so you may be lucky again.

Scott

 

[Jgilbert]

Thank you for all the help.

I tried the latest post and found out that my pto switch had a wire broke off inside it. Soldered it and it started like a charm.

Thanks again, I learned so much.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Jgilbert: ATTABOY!

That was a hard one to find. But you found it using a systematic and logical approach to isolate the real problem (vs the usual random swapping of related parts while hoping to get the right one). As Hercule Poriot describes it: "method and order." Congrats.

 

[inchman]

I have a cs2410 with only 119 hours on it. When I turn the switch, lights come on including glow plug which turn off like normal. I also hear the clicking sound. When I continue to turn to start,it does nothing but the clicking keeps going.
(SOME STUFF DELETED)

I just had this happen to me on my brand new CS2510. After teaching anyone in a 10 mile range a bunch of vocabulary I learned in the Army, I broke down and read the manual. Then I realized how big of a waste of time that was!

I went to check the fuses and low and behold, the starter fuse had fell out of the fuse block! REALLY?

So check that first (or next.)

Let me know if that was it.