CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con't

Chris_T · Apr 12, 2006

CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Thanks for everyone's advice in my "What do I need now and what do I need later thread".

Using that as a starting point my wife and I went looking at tractors in the 20-30 hp range. Since most of y'all probably missed the previous thread, I'm looking for something to do some landscaping around new construction for the next couple years, keep 11 acres of former hayfield in check and maintain/remove snow from 300 ft of driveway or so.

We seem to be most comfortable (size and budget wise) in and around the 23-26 hp range. We've got JD, Kubota, NH, CaseIH and MF dealers in the area, all within 10 minutes of each other. All are willing to drop machines off to test at our new home and I'm looking forward to doing just that! (I'm envisioning Chris' tractor rodeo).

Before we go too much further I've got two questions I'd like your collective advice on:

1) What do I get by moving from subCUTs to CUTs at the same hp?

Keeping things like displacement out of it for now (it is a factor I'll consider), - I can see improvements in FEL, hydraulic and 3 ph capacities, but is there anything else I'm getting for my dollars? I'm leaning towards the CUTS, but I want to know it was a reasoned choice.

and

2) MMM or not?

Of the 5 dealers I talked to, 3 said 3 pt rotary cutter for the hayfield, 1 said either (MF) and the last said MMM (JD). I got the feeling that the last guy just really wanted to sell me a 2210 or 2305 that day (I'm trying hard to remember that annoying sales people don't mean a bad dealership). My lot is fairly bumpy and has a lot of pocket-gopher mounds that pop up regularly (1-2 feet in diameter 6+ inches tall). I don't want to bang up a brand new MMM before the landscaping is done .. what would you do?

Thanks ... Chris

Chris_T · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Link to prior discussion

SWB · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

The CUT will be a heavier machine making it more stable with heavy loads. e.g., for that much field and a rough field at that, you will want to go with a rotary cutter. You will want a heavier tractor to lift it and will probably be able to use a larger cutter per hp than with a subCUT. It will probably be more comfortable as well and the ground clearance over the rough field will be better.

Soundguy · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Cut vs scut will be a weight issue.. possibly loader and 3pt limits increase as well as the ability to use slightly larger implements due to spacing and weight... also gets you some wheel base.

MMM .. great for manicured lawns with lots of obstacles. Not great for brush, or tall grass. Usually more $$ than a rear finish mower.. generally harder to mount/dismount that a rear finish mower.. may not be compatible with some bcakhoe subframes... may require a mid pto.

Rear finish mower.. great for manicured lawns when you have room to turn around with a mower behind you. Usually cheaper and easier to mount/dismount than a MMM .. same quality of cut. Probably wouldn't interfere with most backhoe subframes.

Rotary cutter aka brush hog... good for brush and woody materials over an inch, and up to 3" green, depending on mower size and tractor hp. Can keep a lawn looking fairly decent if you sharpen the blades a tad, once you get rid of the brush. generally the cheapest mower of the 3.

Soundguy

flusher · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Here's what I have for my 10-acre spread, flat, 7 acres of native grasses (aka weeds), 3/4 acre to be landscaped if and when the rain stops up here in the North Valley, 1 acre of almond trees from an old orchard:

21 HP Kubota B7510HST with LA302 FEL ($12,600 plus tax last May)

4-ft King Kutter brush hog ($675 at TSC)
4-ft KK box blade ($375 at TSC) with three 120-lb home-made concrete weights (needed to get this lightweight BB to work effectively)
4-ft Yanmar RS1200 rototiller (used, $300 at local grey market tractor guy)
Huskee lawn tractor (18HP, 42" cut, $1000 at TSC)
Agri-Fab drop spreader ($199) for the LT

Mowing in low gear it takes me all day with the brush hog to do 7 acres of weeds.

My Bota has ag tires so it's not good for lawn mowing. I decided to get the Huskee for the landscape maintenance work instead of buying a set of turf tires/wheels for the Bota.

I'll probably get a post hole digger later this year since I have to replace about 1/4 mile of rusty old farm fence.

My little Bota will get the job done if you're patient and not in a big hurry. 30HP tractors can handle 5-ft wide implements which speed up the job.

Finally, be sure you get an FEL. You'll find dozens of uses for it that you don't know about now.

coasterez · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

I would think anything less that 30 hp would be too small for that much land, unless you are willing to spend all day or more cutting those fields. As other have mentioned, key benefits of CUT are:

handles bigger more capable implements, and more types
ground clearance
weight - digging and pulling power, stability
broader market resale appeal
hydraulic pumping capacity

A few disadvantages:

less maneuverable, harder on lawn
some don't offer mid PTOs
Cost (in some cases)

Test drive them all. You'll then know which one is right for you. I would suggest that you also look at Kioti, Tym, and Mahindra.

browns40 · Apr 12, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Hi chris t,

CUT would gain you capability that only a larger, stronger frame can have, but adds the weight which for most is an asset--but not someone looking primarily for a lawnmower... it gives you a true cat 1 3 pt hitch, so opens the door for a much wider variety of implements & manufacturers of said implements...

sub-CUT gives you the nimbleness & light weight... but you don't have the heft to do ground engaging work efficiently, or manage a heavy rotary cutter comfortably.

I would go as big as you comfortably can, keeping your primary tasks in mind when selecting. Go to deere.com & use the selection tool to see what tractor it spits out for your needs analysis... that would give you an idea of the size machines to evaluate.

If you want a lawnmower, then you can always pick up a little rider...

MMM or finish mower is designed to cut grass/lawn well, not field variety stuff--they aren't intended to hit larger solid object like hills, bumps, stumps--the construction is light & for clean cutting... rotary cutter for fields & brush & the unknowns that they offer.

Good luck on the search!

Chris_T · Apr 13, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Thanks for the replies,

flusher: Your setup sounds very similar to my own thoughts, though if I were to go Kubota I'd probably consider the a 7610 w/FEL

coaster: Thanks for the advice. There's no TYM, Kioti or Mahindra dealers anywhere close and my wife isn't ready to step up to the mid-sized chassis. The only way I get this thing is if she's able to play too!

More and more I think the rotary cutter is the way to go for a couple of years at least. We're still considering letting the guy who hayed it last year take care of the back 5 acres again this year (he'll be next door anyway), but I'm told the best way to get rid of some of our rodents is to keep it fairly short so the raptors and owls can see the little tasty morsels

DanR67 · Apr 13, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

Chris -

You first question: what's the main difference between subCUT and CUT? Well in addition to the obvious answer of HP / weight / FEL & 3PH lift capacity - one that made a clear decision for me: ground clearance.

The Kubota subCUTS run @ 6 - 8 inches clearance - while my B7610 runs @ 11-12 inches. This was a definite need for me because I need to be able to clear rocks, small stumps etc in my woods - my property is definitely NOT a golf course!

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Your second question: MMM or RFM - as someone mentioned - if you have "wide open space" (ie hay fields) - and don't need to make super tight turns - then I'd say go for the RFM for the reasons that everyone else gave - not to mention that it should be considerably cheaper than the same width MMM.

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Another consideration: you mention clearing snow from a 300 foot drive - how much snow do you typically get in a winter? If you get numerous, heavy snowfalls - you may end up with "snow berms" that you can't plow / heap any more snow over - and FEL snow clearing is really not efficient once you've tried it.

For that reason - if you get - for example - 6 to 10 storms that dump 8 inches or more per season - I'd recommend investing in a snowblower. I picked up a used 3PH 50 inch model last fall - and while we got considerably less snow than usual in New England - it made clearing what we did get quite easy compared with my old walk-behind SB!

Only thing: SB's don't like gravel too much - but if you have a well-packed, and level drive - then I think you'd be OK.

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Finally as far as "size" - to keep those 5+ acres mowed in a "reasonable" amount of time - you want a bigger RFM - and that means more HP.

I've got a 54" MMM - so I can't comment on the HP needed to run the larger RFM decks - but I think you could go as high as a 60" wide on a B7610 (w/ 18 PTO HP) with no difficulty - but you might want to consider a B7800 (30 HP / 22 PTO HP) - which still isn't too big frame-wise.

To get an approximate idea of *mowing time* (note: your mileage may vary!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) - check out this post - that discussed "acres mowed / hour".

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Since the idea of a tractor is to do the work for you (rather than pay someone else to clear your fields) - I'd say "hay mowing" the back 5+ acres is a "requirement" - do some homework on the RFM mower end of things to figure out "width vs manueverability" - and then go for the tractor with the PTO HP that best matches your mower needs. I think the FEL capacity will be sufficient whatever you choose.

I'd also say - because of the "gopher mounds" - that the subCUTs should be excluded (I know - the prices ARE lower...) - and a B7610 (or maybe TC24?) would be a minimum for your property - I'm guessing a 25 - 30 HP range might be a better fit for a larger RFM.

I hope that helps,

Dan

RalphVa · Apr 13, 2006

Re: CUT vs. subCUT around 25 hp - now and later con\'t

One BIG difference between sub CUTs and CUTs is CUTs generally don't have a plastic hydrostatic oil cooling fan underneath the tractor. A CUT is therefore more usable on very unevent terrain or in areas where a tire could kick a limb up into the cooling fan blade (on a sub CUT). Also, I think you'll likely find that a CUT will have a little bit more FEL and 3 ph capabilities/hp.

The sub CUTs are basically mowing tractors with FEL and 3 ph capabilities. Whereas, the CUTs may not be as good for lawn mowing but have more FEL and 3 ph capabilities.

In the hp range you're looking, you should be able to run a 5' brush hog and possibly even a 6' and quite a wide MMM, 6-7'.

Ralph