DC Welding

   / DC Welding #21  
Sound Guy, Unfortunately the "standard" approach is often not standard. The gap between tech writers and technicians and engineers often interferes with things or language differences can cause translation problems.

Often times when "PEAK" power is listed it does not actually indicate the actual power in Watts when the product of the instantaneous voltage and current values are at the maximum. It is a statement of the highest RMS Wattage reached in conditions such as all burners on high, during starting surge of a motor, inrush current to a heating element or in some instances inrush to charge a capacitor. Rated this way you get an idea of how large a fuse has to be to not blow or a breaker to not trip under this "peak" load. It does NOT necessarily relate to the instantaneous power peak during a half cycle when the product of amps and volts is at its maximum value.

Big time philosophical difference or point of view between the electrician and the electronic tech or engineer.

Warning ANNECDOTE FOLLOWS!!!

In my spare time I was helping a friend who was placed in charge of electronically outfitting several diesel powered aluminum fishing boats for use in Alaska that were being made at the Campbell shipyard in San Diego. He was loaned manpower from the ranks of the electricians. They were having problems. Lots of electronics on these boats: RADAR, SONAR, VHF, SSB SATNAV and on and on. Short circuits, popped breakers, vaporized fuses in pigtails to radios, and on and on.

My friend was so busy putting out little fires he didn't GET the big picture which was that the electricians were using the black wires for "HOT" and the electronic technicians were using the black wires for ground (like the manufacturers intended.) Between them they were wiring the 12 volt busses directly to ground through breakers and fuses. Everyone followed THEIR standard but the electricians were not used to DC color codes.

My point is that sometimes we need to take a step back and pull our noses out of contact with the bark of a tree to better observe the forest.

Pat
 
   / DC Welding #22  
I'd be interested to learn exactly what 'standard' is being used on that UL tag.

Is it 'peak' power in electronics terms.. or is it the highest expected RMS draw. Since it was an organization like the UL.. I had 'assumed' ( here we go! ) that if they used the word 'peak'.. that thet refered to the actual quantifiable and calculated peak waveform in keeping wtih electronic conventions.. IE.. pk 2 pk, pk, rms, average.. etc..

Soundguy
 
   / DC Welding #23  
Soundguy, Have you ever dealt with UL? I have sent prototype products in for testing. What a bureaucratic outfit. One item, a moving message sign, came back with the required engineering change that was to wrap all the insulated wire nuts with UL approved electrical tape and they gave the specs for the tape. My consulting customer said he supposed they couldn't find anything substantive so they invented something trivial to justify their part in the process.

Pat
 
   / DC Welding #24  
Not to mention that they probably tried to hit you up for another application fee after the rejection.. right?

Soundguy
 
   / DC Welding #25  
Soundguy said:
Not to mention that they probably tried to hit you up for another application fee after the rejection.. right?

Soundguy

Not that time. They gave me conditional approval, with the condition being to wrap a minimum of three layers of vinyl electrical tape over each insulated with nut.

The highest voltage was 120VAC +/- normal fluctuations. What boggles the mind is that the insulated wire nuts were UL approved. Why in H E double toothpicks did they want us to wrap insulation around a UL approved insulator approved for a much higher voltage? Like my customer said, they were probably justifying their existence. If they couldn't find something to gripe about then of course they weren't needed.

You ain't seen nuttin' till you design something that plugs into the wall AND attaches to a patient! I built a prototype hot/cold therapy machine for use on race horses and human athletes. VERY STRINGENT leakage standards and such. Hospital equipment standards make household UL approval look like a kindergarten game.

I remember various experiences with different peoples electric guitars and amps. You could get electrocuted!!!! Hard to be much more surprised than to close talk a microphone and get sparks between the mike and your lips!!!

Pat
 
   / DC Welding #26  
Casey1 said:
DC output adds better control on thin work and easier out-of-position welding, as well as fewer arc outages, less sticking and spatter.

I pulled that out of a Miller ad. However I have wondered why the same welder puts out 225 amps AC but only 150 amps DC. I am sure the answer is simple and obvious but for some reason I have never run across an explanation.

I believe the answer is that question is the AC is being rectifier by a half-wave rectifier. If it were a full wave rectifier, it would be 225. The full explanation can be found in a basic electronics, or electricians book.
 
   / DC Welding #27  
J_J said:
I believe the answer is that question is the AC is being rectifier by a half-wave rectifier. If it were a full wave rectifier, it would be 225. The full explanation can be found in a basic electronics, or electricians book.

I thought that too but that begs the question why not use the full wave rectifier? Cost perhaps? Wouldn't it be nice to have 225 amps DC at your disposal for the price, that is if the cost of the full wave rectifier is not prohibitive.

I barely know enough about electronics to ask dumb questions but all I have read here, and in some welding forums, none have addressed the question of the difference in amps between ac and dc in the same welder. Perhaps the question is too basic.
 
   / DC Welding #28  
Sorry JJ but I don't think so. Borrow an O'scope and look at the wave form or open the case and measure the RMS voltage (AC) on the secondary of the transformer (or autoformer depending on the design) and then with a true RMS meter measure the DC output. I think you will find you are in error.

Casey1, Most welding forum stuff revolves around what happens outside the box (including the setting knobs) rather than inside the box. The two are totally different knowledge bases.

Pat
 
   / DC Welding #29  
I got curious, so I went and grabbed the schematic from Miller's site(see attachment). Unless I'm reading it wrong, they do use a full wave rectifier. I don't have a definitive answer on why the DC amp rating is so much lower than the AC amp rating, though.
 

Attachments

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   / DC Welding #30  
Hi
I don't believe UL approves anything anymore they only list the Item. I haven't seen a label in 50 years that said UL approved only UL listed. But I have been wrong before.

Charlie
 

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