Dead tractor - help!

[JoeL4330]

I went through the same reasoning chain, talked with knowledgeable dealer's mechanics and concluded it wasn't worth it in my case, at least. If my problems had been that the pleated filter was clogging up with coarse grit, then it would have made sense to put in a coarse filter in front of it.

To my mind, it makes no sense to put a finer filter in front of the pleated filter. As for the putting in a smaller, cheaper, more easily field-replaceable equivalent filter, it would make sense if you had some warning system (other than the tractor dying) to tell you it was clogging, and also a bypass (like your oil filter) in the event that it did clog.

Screens in fuel tanks are generally there to protect the fuel pump, which you don't have ...your's is a gravity feed system.

Again, on the basis of bitter experience, at first sign of a fuel-related stumble, shut down before you empty the injector lines and check the fuel bowl. If it's empty then mouth-to-mouth (and/or check the fuel gauge and fuel level in the tank). If the fuel bowl is full, then suspect the pleated filter and change it. Then hope that the filter did its job and that the problems are not in the injector pump etc.

If you wanted to do more serious mods, RACOR, among others, makes filtration systems with water separation (and warning lights) and heater elements.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Sorry to lead you in the wrong way at first with the screen in the tank but like I said in one of my first post I was not familiar with your tractor but about 1/2 of them have a threaded in nipple with a screen like SoundGuy also stated. I was just trying to give you a general direction to figure out the fuel problem. Anyway I am glad to hear you were able to get it back up and running with my help and the help of others. I think you did a good thing draining the tank. Keep a good strong dose of Power Serve or Howse in there and you should be fine. I would not use that drained fuel for anything but fire starter or a cleaner. Even putting small amounts with fresh fuel could put you right back in the same spot. Working on a tractor in the cold.


Chris

 

[Stargazer]

Hi 5030 don't feel to bad I know 1 towtruck driver had 17 semi tows yesterday here in DSM don't know about other drivers at his business and Monday we didn't have garbage/recyle pick up as City trucks were froze up Hope their not using same fuel for snow/sand grader veh

 

[Soundguy]

I thought I had already posted a diagram, above, from the shop manual for his machine that shows no filter ...here are the two relevant pics from the parts manual ...I don't see a filter, and from experience with my 4330, I had a piece of crud come down the hose that would have been stopped by a screen if there were one.

the pic in the former message was more of a block diagram IIIRC.. this one is more schematic.. though lacking detail.. but yes.. It does not appear to have a screen... A deffinate oversite IMHO... A small tube like screen element would not have been hard to implement at that fuel tap.... that and a shutoff valve..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

To my mind, it makes no sense to put a finer filter in front of the pleated filter. As for the putting in a smaller, cheaper, more easily field-replaceable equivalent filter, it would make sense if you had some warning system (other than the tractor dying) to tell you it was clogging, and also a bypass (like your oil filter) in the event that it did clog..

There is a warning system.. it's your tachometer.. when you start loosing power and rpm, and have to idle down, and then it dies again upon throttle up.. you know a fuel filter is clogged. This 'warning system' works in conjunction with your brain.

Screens in fuel tanks are generally there to protect the fuel pump, which you don't have ...your's is a gravity feed system..

If he has an injector pump on that diesel.. then he -has- a fuel pump.

I'd rather loo$e a pre-filter and fine filter, vs loosing my injection pump.

If you wanted to do more serious mods, RACOR, among others, makes filtration systems with water separation (and warning lights) and heater elements.

Many canister fitlers have water seperators built in. Many tractors have water seps too. my NH has 3 places i can bleed water using finger or thumb screws.. I can't imagine a tractor company building a machine with no fuel seperator bowl.. etc. They ford and others even had those back in 1939...

Soundguy

 

[john_bud]

I would NOT put an additional filter in place. The fuel is gravity fed and adding more restriction will make it easier to stop flow in the winter. Probably fine to do in the summer.

An excellent addition would be to use a lift pump out of the tank to a HEATED filter head then to the factory filter. The air bleed screw would then have fuel squirt out when opened to prime when the lift pump was on.


jb

 

[5030tinkerer]

Many canister fitlers have water seperators built in. Many tractors have water seps too. my NH has 3 places i can bleed water using finger or thumb screws.. I can't imagine a tractor company building a machine with no fuel seperator bowl.. etc. They ford and others even had those back in 1939...
Soundguy

Soundguy - I appreciate your wisdom here. Sadly, Kubota doesn't to my knowledge offer such an option. The ONLY way that I have found to drain water is to remove the fuel filter surround canister - a task you are supposed to complete every 100 hours per the manual.

 

[Soundguy]

I think I'd add a seperator bowl with no filter in it.

IE.. no obstruction.. just a canister with a glass bottom and an inlet and outlet, and a petcock on the bottom. It will let you 'see' water and heavy debri.. and drain them.

IMHO.. Kubota missed the boat on that design.. it's pathetic...

soundguy

 

[JoeL4330]

If you want to add something, how about this Racor?

 

[RickB]

I think I'd add a seperator bowl with no filter in it.

IE.. no obstruction.. just a canister with a glass bottom and an inlet and outlet, and a petcock on the bottom. It will let you 'see' water and heavy debri.. and drain them.

IMHO.. Kubota missed the boat on that design.. it's pathetic...

soundguy

That's hardly unique to Kubota. Every compact ever sold by Ford/New Holland is exactly the same as well as many, many larger FNH's. Few, if any Deeres have had separators.

An additional filter won't help if whatever is causing the blockage is too large to make it out of the tank. From what I am reading, I am not sure gelling is the issue so much as one or more large foreign particles in the tank.

 

[Soundguy]

That's hardly unique to Kubota. Every compact ever sold by Ford/New Holland is exactly the same as well as many, many larger FNH's. Few, if any Deeres have had separators.

An additional filter won't help if whatever is causing the blockage is too large to make it out of the tank. From what I am reading, I am not sure gelling is the issue so much as one or more large foreign particles in the tank.

I recalling have a fuel petcock/bleeder on my 1920?

What are we defining as a 'ford' compact? Is an 8n a ford compact? It has a seperator bowl? same with the 00/01 series units?

The NH canister filters that use the twist connect top that hav ethe black base with a petcock have water seperators bult in.. I'm sure those fit many models.

soundguy

 

[RickB]

I recalling have a fuel petcock/bleeder on my 1920?

What are we defining as a 'ford' compact? Is an 8n a ford compact? It has a seperator bowl? same with the 00/01 series units?

The NH canister filters that use the twist connect top that hav ethe black base with a petcock have water seperators bult in.. I'm sure those fit many models.

soundguy

What did you do, stub your toe on the way to the computer? You have been around too long for me to need to define "compact tractor" for you. The reference is to water separators on diesel tractors, which by your own description is a different and additional assembly than a fuel filter. No mention of petcocks or bleeders. You are just being argumentative.

 

[scott_vt]

What did you do, stub your toe on the way to the computer? You are just being argumentative.

Good Afternoon Rick,
Chris argumentative ??? Never !

 

[Soundguy]

What did you do, stub your toe on the way to the computer? You have been around too long for me to need to define "compact tractor" for you. The reference is to water separators on diesel tractors, which by your own description is a different and additional assembly than a fuel filter. No mention of petcocks or bleeders. You are just being argumentative.

well.. actually.. I wasn't trying to be argumentative or evasive on that one.. I was actually aiming for fair and realistic.

Since the 'CUT' designator is realitively new.. many people don't like to use it when refering to an old 8n or MF 35. Just for frame of reference, I was asking if you were considering the cut just based on size and hp.. or were meaning more like new tractors.

As for the fuel bowl.. as you know, on some models.. the only real ful filter was a set of screens and a seperator bowl. the bowl did double duty for settling heavy debri, and letting water find the low spot. While the fuel tap/bowl on my old fords is primarilly a 'filter' with a screen on top, and in the bowl ( and in the carb elbow).. I usually consider it a water seperator too, since it will function that way.

Honest there.. no argument intended.. way to tired for that these last few days. I've been pulling 20 +/- hour days for the last week almost.

Soundguy

 

[5030tinkerer]

I am not sure gelling is the issue so much as one or more large foreign particles in the tank.

I wonder if Rick is right. It was almost 60 out today. With half a tank of fuel, the machine started sputtering like it was going to die. I killed the engine and took a peek at the filter - bone dry. It was getting dark and I wasn't in a bad spot just anyway, so I decided to leave it there.

This time, I'm going to remove the fuel hose AT THE TANK rather than at the filter and see if my issue is in the tank or in the line immediately connected to the tank.

If it's in the tank, I guess I'm not sure what I can do to get it flushed given that draining it was of no use.

 

[JoeL4330]

I'm anxious to hear what you find (other than it's a lot harder to pull the hose at the tank end than at the filter end) It would be pretty good news, however, if fuel ran out of the tank, but not down the hose, which would point to blockage in the hose, which should be easily cured ...with mouth to mouth, compressed air, or a new hose.

Of course, if there is a blockage in the hose, it came from the tank and there may be more to follow. It's just that cleaning the tank is a pain ...removing it means removing part of the dash-intellipanel, etc. (I forget, is yours a cab 5030?), and you can't easily get to the tank outlet from the tank filler (inlet) because they are offset from one another.

Just one final thought: if the fuel does not flow out of the bottom of the tank when you yank the hose, you might try removing the filler cap ...if the vent in the cap were clogged, that might prevent fuel draining/feeding ...when you loosened it, you might hear a "whoosh" as air flowed in.

 

[5030tinkerer]

I don't have a cab (likely the ONLY time that I'll be thankful for not having one...). I'll check it out Friday night when I have some time.

Is the only way to clean the tank to remove it?

 

[JoeL4330]

Let's see ...

because the outlet is offset from the filler cap opening, you can't "grab" something that is blocking the outlet ...

you could try and find something that would dissolve the blockage, but unless it is gelled fuel (ruled out, apparently) then you might just dissolve the tank ...

if you could drain the fuel, you might try a wet/dry flexible vacuum hose (but, if you could drain the fuel, then there wouldn't be a blockage, right?) ...

you could try suction on the outlet fitting, hoping to squeeze/squish the blockage through the fitting.

Hoping that the blockage was ferrous, you could try a flexible magnetic grabber ...or, even a magnet on a string (fastened securely)

Since I assume you can't drain the fuel, you will probably siphon it out? I would place a filter over the receptacle into which the fuel siphons (funnel w. filter, or maybe cheesecloth, etc.) and hope that the siphon sucks up the obstruction, ...which is not all that likely since the obstruction doesn't float (or it would not have blocked the outlet until you were just out of fuel, no?).

So, just hope it's in the hose, otherwise you may be stuck with having to remove the tank ...I have the shop manual and will try and remember to look and see if there are any tricks, but according to my dealer it involves the "dashboard" removal.

 

[J_J]

I wonder if Rick is right. It was almost 60 out today. With half a tank of fuel, the machine started sputtering like it was going to die. I killed the engine and took a peek at the filter - bone dry. It was getting dark and I wasn't in a bad spot just anyway, so I decided to leave it there.

This time, I'm going to remove the fuel hose AT THE TANK rather than at the filter and see if my issue is in the tank or in the line immediately connected to the tank.

If it's in the tank, I guess I'm not sure what I can do to get it flushed given that draining it was of no use.

Why don't you run a line from the filter back to the fuel tank and draw directly from the tank. That is what I did, and it worked well. Later I found the small metal fuel line was stopped up.

You might try blowing out the line starting at the fuel filter. If that clears it up, then you know that there is crud in the tank, and needs cleaning.

 

[john_bud]

Drain out all the fuel. The outlet is normally removable (not positive on your machine). Un-bolt it and see what you can see, fix what needs it, replace what can't be fixed.

jb