Deadly Force

ERNIEB · Apr 25, 2001

I don't know if it makes a difference, but maybe I should have mentioned that the chickens in question are not your average sunday dinners. I have heard of these fighting game roosters selling for up to $250.00 each. Some probably even higher. Since the actual fights are very illegal, much of the wheeling and dealing is an underground activity.

Ernie

Bird · Apr 25, 2001

Don't know about the Texas Cop Shop, Ernie, but I'd forgotten that you can go to the State's own web site and pull up the Penal Code and/or other laws.

It would be a bit long to copy that section of the Penal Code here, but anyone interested in exactly what it says can go to http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/pe/pe000900.html#pe001.9.01 and read it.

BirdEdited by Bird on 04/25/01 09:49 AM (server time).

dmccarty · Apr 26, 2001

ERNIEB,

I know of two similar situations, one happened in the mid 90's in North Carolina and the other was form the late 80s early 90s in Florida. In Florida a man caught a theif running from his house/apartment with his TV set. The owner chased the thief and fired a couple of rounds from a pistol. It was a crappy, cheapo 380 if I remember correctly. By pure chance one round hit the thief and killed him. The case went either to a grand jury or trial, I can't remember which. A police officer who fired the pistol as part of the proceedings said it was pure chance that the thief was hit since the pistol sometimes shot ot the right and sometimes to the left.

Florida law at the time said you could use deadly force to prevent a property crime.

In the North Carolina case a man heard a noise in his garage and grabbed a 22 rifle. He found two young teenagers in the garage. He felt threatened for some reason and started shooting. On of the kids died. There was confusion as to when he started shooting and where the location of the teenagers. I think he was shooting at them as they ran out the garage door and down his driveway. I'm pretty sure his case went to trial.

In North Carolina deadly force can only be used to prevent a crime causing a serious injury or death, kidnapping, and escapes from prison. There might be a few more statute allowed use of deadly force but they fall under the three I listed. NC law is even stranger WHEN deadly force can be used. If you wake up in the middle of the night and find someone in your house you can't just start blazing away. You have to be afraid for the your life or your families before using deadly force. I don't know about you but if someone is in my house I'm real sure they ain't there for Tea and Crumpets. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif BUT the law has a curve ball. If someone is pounding/kicked/knocking down your door to get INTO your house, FIRE away! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I think you are NUTS if you fire through the door but its supposedly part of the law. I think it is case law since I don't remember a statute.

The bottom line to all of this is that regardless of what the state law says about using deadly force to prevent a property crime, if one is going to use deadly force one had better be in a life threatening situation. One had better be able to prove it to a jury. In the two cases I mentioned both men were not convicted in a trial. But they were punished. They had their names and faces all in the press and they had to pay a fortune for legal expenses. Killing someone for a hundred dollar TV set is nuts. Now maybe one might THINK they guy got what he deserved but it was very expensive.....

"I''ve heard police officers say that if you intend to shoot someone crawling into your window make sure he falls inside the house. I thought this was bad advice because someone crawling in a window does not automatically mean ones life is in jeopardy, no matter which side of the window he fell on."

The other thing one hears is to pull them inside the door way or put a knife/weapon on the body. That is REAL REAL REAL bad advice. Since they you have tampered with evidence and even if the use of deadly force WAS justified the person that tampered with the evidence is going to make the incident look real suspicious.

Again, if its only property that is at risk DONT use deadly force. You are in deep ickyness if you do. That is our system like it or not......

Later....
Dan McCarty

dmccarty · Apr 26, 2001

BoonDox,

Be careful about putting a round near the bad guys feet. That is a use of deadly force. If you feel like your life is at risk then you can use deadly force. If this is not the case don't fire that weapon at the person. That is a use of deadly force and then YOU can be in trouble. That is the law, at least as I understand it in NC and FL, and I can't believe its that different anywhere else. This goes for the idea of "I'll just wing 'em a bit." The intention is to wound but it would still be a use of deadly force. So if a guy is simply tresspassing and I think, "I'll just grace him or put a round over his head," that is a use of deadly force. I'll be in deep you know what.....

Deadly force is deadly force. For a person to use deadly force in self defense someone had better be a serious thread. The law on this sort stuff uses the word "reasonable" quite frequently. As in "Would a reasonable person expect the man who broke into the house at 2:00am carrying a knife was a threat?" Or "Would a reasonable person expect the man walking across my land is a threat?" The Jury decides. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later...
Dan

Jag · Apr 26, 2001

Mr D, very good point. When all else goes right, you can still go wrong. One case, a home owner shot into the ground at a man running away after breaking into the garage.. As Murphy would have it the round hit the sidewalk, skipped and struck the would be robber in the inner thigh. The bullet cut an major artery and the robber bleed to death over the next two hunderd yards. The home owner did end up doing time.

Phred · Apr 27, 2001

“My 80-year old father (who died in 1999) proudly displayed his concealed weapon permit. I plan to get one of my own, especially for vacations and such.”

Be careful with CCW and interstate travel. You will find that only a few states will honor your TX permit. And don’t even think about DC, MA or similar left wing states. Possession of a handgun can turn into a real headache.

This is one reason why we need a national CCW law.

Phred

cowboydoc · Apr 27, 2001

Just amazes me that we have come so far in society that now some two bit thief can come in and steal your property and you shoot the punk trying to get away with it and end up in prison!!! I realize that some will say that we've come so far in society that a person does do time for it. Problem is the criminals are more protected than we are.

Last month here a local farmer was being sued because a hunter had come on his place, even though it was posted everywhere no hunting or trespassing, and fallen into an old well and broke his leg. The guy had the nerve to sue the farmer for his broken leg and won even though the farmer prosecuted the guy for criminal trespassing. The only reason that he did that was because the guy wanted the farmer to pay his medical bills. The farmer told him no way and so he told him he was going to sue him. Farmer said fine then I'm pressing charges for criminal trespass. The guy won 193,000 from the farmer's insurance. Now go figure that one!!!!

ERNIEB · Apr 27, 2001

Dan,
If you look thru the link Bird posted, it's clear from 9.41 and 9.42 that in Texas a person can use deadly force to prevent theft at night, or even criminal mischief for that matter. But as you point out there can be repercussions, other than criminal arrest and trial. This is about as good of an opening as I'm gonna get to provide an update to the chicken thief case.
The media has tagged the dead youngster "the lost boy". He had lived with his mother, who up and moved away while her son was absent. Although she didn't know where he was, she said she was not concerned because there was "lots of family" where he could find a place to stay. He ended up with his father, who booted him out when he and a friend stole money from the friends father. He then went to live with his 19yo sister, who also threw him out when he stole from her. People from the school and from Pop Warner football, that he was envolved with for a time, both tried to help this young man. Both have said that the parents interaction with their son was nil.
The Police still have not charged the home owner, and right now it does not look like there will even be a grand jury investigation. Yesterday on a talk radio program the mother stated that her son was not the criminal, it's the home owner who is the criminal. She is talking to a lawyer about a wrongfull death law suit.
IMO, she could better use her time writing a book. I'll even give her a tittle for it. "How To Raise a Criminal".
Dan, if you have hung thru this long winded story, even though the home owner has the law on his side he is not out of the woods yet, and could have a rough time ahead.

Ernie

dmccarty · Apr 27, 2001

Cowboydoc,

Remember that our courts and law are part of the CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. It means what it say. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Its not the VICTIMS JUSTICE SYSTEM....

I posted my land to lower the liability risk. The NC Cooperative Extension site had an article on landowner liability and the best way to lower the risk was to post. I'm still having problems with tresspassers. Someone was up plinking with a 22 a month or so ago. They really are leaving me with no choice but to press charges when I catch them.

Was the well and old open pit well? If so I think that is a considered a real bad thing! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif My father-in-law retired from DOT last year. One of the properties we were bidding on had a hand dug well that was very exposed. The well house had long ago rotted away so there was a 3 foot wide hole a good 20 feet deep with no cover. My father-in-law said that DOT regulations required them to fill wells with concrete! I could see someone who had such a hidden but dangerous spot getting in trouble even with posted land. What if it had been a child? But as an adult he should have not been there....

Later...
Dan McCarty

dmccarty · Apr 27, 2001

ErnieB,

I don't doubt that the state statute allows the use of deadly force to prevent a property crime. But case law can change the statue. And even if the law allows such a use of deadly force the DA could decide to let a jury decide if the shooter followed the law. That adds up to lots of lost money. I have a coworker who has had problems with a wedding photographer for the last year. They have a lawyer for a small claims court case which is cost them about $500 for this simple but long drawn out case. I would hate to see the bill for a homicide defense.

And this is just for a CRIMINAL defense. You might be found not guilty in a criminal case but then you have to worry about a Civil suit. More dollars out the window even if one wins.......... All for a chicken? Even fighting cocks don't cost that much! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

You are right about the parents of the boy. They should be in prison. There are certainly enough statutes to nail them. But there is no permit required to bring a child in this world. Sometimes I wonder if that is a good thing....

Back in Florida a few years ago there was a suit from a parent against the state. The mother was a welfare queen if there ever was one. She had 6-8 children, lived in public housing on welfare. Next to the public housing was a shell rock lake. In South Florida shell rock lakes are all over the place espcially near roads. The shell rock is dug out to build roads and raise land. Once the mining is finished the pit, which fills with water as soon as they start digging, is left as a lake. They can be dangerous since they can be very deep and have steep sides.

Can you see where this is going? Since, boys will be boys, someone had cut a hole in the fence around the shell rock lake. Surpise! Who would do such a thing? And the kids from the complex would swim in the lake. Unfortunately one of the woman's boys drowned in said lake so she filed suit against the state for not maintaining the fence...... AND, and this what is REALLY bad, she sued for loss of income. Yep, since she was getting money from the state for her son, his death meant that she was going to suffer a loss of income....

She eventually lost the suit but the state had to waste taxpayer money in the defense.....

There are to many people in the world having children who should not be....

Ernie, I think I write some of the longest winded appends to TBN! What kind of TBNite would I be if I did not read YOUR append? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Your note is pretty small compared to my "War and Peace" type of epic notes! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later...
Dan LongWindedAsUsual McCarty