Deadly Force

[Bird]

Whew, you guys are way too technical for me./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

 

[cowboydoc]

Me too Bird, I'm just still trying to remember what 9.8m/s2 was for then! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

For what it's worth:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=52398

 

[GlueGuy]

I followed the link below referring to "Hatcher's Notebook", and found this link . It provides a very good explanation of some real, live experiments done back in the '60's. Very informative, and provided answers to all our questions, supported by actual experimental observations.

Bottom line is that the terminal velocity is primarily dependent on the size of the bullet, and ranges from about 134 f/s for a tumbling .22 Short to a high of 323 f/s for the 180gr .30-06.

It also notes that the bullets come down "tail first" because they don't lose all their spin, and maintain an "upright" configuration because of the resulting centrifigal force.

I'm satisfied.

The GlueGuy

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>So are we havin' fun yet? ...or are we bored?</font color=blue>

Of course I'm having fun, Jor El! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Have you noticed I just can't seem to stay out of it?

It's just that I've been known to pull a thread WAY off course, and I certainly feel like I've done it again. I like the diversions as much as the next guy, but I'm the self-conscious type and I worry that I'm boring a lot of readers who tuned in for the original topic. Dollars to donuts I'm boring somebody right now! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Anyway, I especially enjoyed your observations and calculations on this one. You have definitely earned the smarty hat.

The original question that I was posing asked if falling bullets could be lethal. After all our scientific calculations, I think the most definitive answer came from the link that GlueGuy mentioned, wherein it reports falling bullet valocities of 134 to 323 f/s. The final quote from that passage was:

"<font color=red>As a point of interest a velocity of about between 160 and 200 f/s (±) is needed to penetrate skin. However, one could still be seriously injured if struck by a falling bullet.</font color=red>"

I think that says it all. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

GlueGuy,

Please don't worry, I was not trying to confuse or attribute the calculations as yours. My apologies, as I did not intend to do that. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

What I was thinking about last night however was the difference in mass and the initial velocity. It finally occurred to me late last night that doubling the mass requires twice the energy to maintain the same initial velocity. Therefore, more mass, same velocity, more energy, higher inertia thus resulting in a higher/longer trajectory. I did confuse the initial velocity with the initial energy input. /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

I looked at the "about" section of the calculator and it seems to be a model for the classic cannonball weight vs trajectory and velocity question.

Again my apologies for inferring the calculations as yours./w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Pete

 

[JOR_EL]

Hey Harv, Check this out!! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

From GlueGuy's tech-link:

[[[Bottom line is that the terminal velocity is primarily dependent on the size of the bullet, and ranges from about 134 f/s for a tumbling .22 Short to a high of 323 f/s for the 180gr .30-06.]]] (323fps is 220mph)

From my first post on this subject:

[[[My guess would put the bullet at 300 mph or so (best "fall" orientation) which makes a convenient conversion from 60mph/88fps X5, or 440 fps.]]]

Since my max bullet size (1/2 oz. = (+/-)250 grain) is larger than the "link" example of 180 gr. and since the "link acknowledges the maxvel "is primarily dependent" on bullet size, then my bullet should be faster than the 323fps given, ...(maybe 400+fps??)

IS THIS "BALL-PARK" GUESSTIMATION OR WHAT?? I've looked all-around for my modesty this morning, ...seem to have misplaced it. Think I'm gonna need a size-larger "smarty-hat", ...maybe with a gold tassel! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Note; While the example 180gr./30.06 is the standard weight (I think!) of a military round in this caliber, heavier bullets ARE available for it. And the 250gr max I used is certainly available in other calibers, if not in 30.06.)

From the tech-link:
"As a point of interest a velocity of about between 160 and 200 f/s (±) is needed to penetrate skin. However, one could still be seriously injured if struck by a falling bullet."

From my same post.

[[[There probably are some less-hard-headed among us that would not survive a point-on hit from a 1/3 -1/2 ounce projectile at 400+ fps.]]]

Skin? (180fps avg.?)Thin skulls? (maybe double that-or-so?)
I say keep Granny and the baby INSIDE, when it's "celebratin' time"!! /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

From my 2nd post:

[[[I can't buy a 5lb. chunk of lead falling from 7250 feet with a max of 128 fps, ...Amazing!! ]]]
...Especially with the "tumbling 22short" at 134fps! (DON'T use that java applet "calculator" for your budget! /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif )

This has been a fun exercise with the TBN "Think-Tank"!
And a NEW HAT to boot! Yahoo!! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Makes me want to shoot up-in-the-air!

Where's my rifle? Blanks, shmanx!

Thanks to all participants, for a good time! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Larry

 

[JOR_EL]

Whoops!,

...meant to say thanks to Dave Piper and GlueGuy for the ballistic links.

Interesting stuff, guys! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Larry

 

[GlueGuy]

As if we haven't beaten this do death yet /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, I found one more link from my buddy Cecil Adams (ya'll know about the Straight Dope?). At any rate, I came across this because of the reference to the aforementioned "Hatcher's Notebook", and this goes into the item we were discussing originally, and that is whether a falling bullet might kill someone. Old Cecil calls into question Hatcher's original premise of what it would take to penetrate the skin. At any rate, it's a little more fodder (grist?) for the mill, and as usual, is presented in Cecil's usual entertaining manner here.

I think the bottom line is that the falling bullet falls firmly into a gray area (with all the attendant variables) of "maybe" and "depending...".

This has been great fun (at least for me /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif)! I know I learned something new, and I hope it didn't bore others too much....

Now, I'm going out to celebrate. Thought I would shoot my rifle in the air or something /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif...

The GlueGuy

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>Thought I would shoot my rifle in the air or something</font color=blue>

Watch it, Dude!!! I live close enough that I might be driving by. /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif