<font color="blue">If I had any expectation at all of buying an item, I'd never tell the seller it was "worth" less than he/she was asking even if I believed it was. However, I might say something like, "It's probably worth that much, but I just can't afford it." And in most, if not all, cases, I'd be telling the honest truth. </font>
Bird, just how DID you get to be so wise, smart, thoughtful and kind? You never cease to amaze me with the pearls of wisdom you grace us all with. (And no, this is not sarcasm - as I 've said before, that's not my "bag".)
This is quite a topic, very near and dear to my heart. Wow, I can tell this is going to be a long post.
Let me start by saying that I do not like to be "haggled" with, and therefore, I keep my own "haggling" to a bare minimum. There are very few "hard and fast" rules in this world, with the exception of the Golden Rule, and a little observation of mine that it is "better" to be kind, loving, forgiving, understanding, compassionate and non-judgmental than to be otherwise.
To every thing, there is a season. A time to make a counter-offer, as in when buying a house, or an item out of the local flyer where the seller might be "asking $2,500"; and a time to say "yes" or "no", as in when you have just been given a quote by a hard-working man (or woman), whether he is a tree guy, a tractor salesman, a mechanic or or a store owner. (When's the last time the cashier at the grocery store gave you the total, and you asked, "can you do any better on those beans?"
I think we've all "haggled" at tag sales/garage sales/yard sales/whatever you call them where you come from, but even that can be overdone. When someone is asking 10 cents for a book, I'm not going to ask them if they can come down to a nickel. On "bigger ticket" items, I see no real problem with making a counter-offer; the seller can say "yea" or "nay"; no harm, no foul.
BUT: I firmly believe there is a time NOT to haggle. For instance, when the seller of the item in the local flyer is asking "$2,500 FIRM"; when said hard-working man or woman tradesperson has just handed you a quote; or even when someone is privately selling an item, and you think the asking price is a "fair" one. There have been many times that I know I could have paid less for something than what I believed it was really "worth" .... but there's that pesky little Golden Rule again. Would I want someone to take advantage of me, perhaps because I was foolish enough to include "Must Sell" in my ad? Or because the other person has good reason to believe that I am somehow not in a position to take the time to get what the item is really "worth"? (For example, the moving van is pulling away, and the wife and kids are waiting for me in the car that is filled with luggage). I like a bargain as much as the next guy, but I also love a good night's sleep, knowing that I've done my best that day to do what is "right" by my fellow man.
I have a friend who "haggles" with very little conscience, and "wheels and deals" with very little regard for the rest of humanity. Example: we both bought used, surplus Millermatic 250 welders from a company that sold them to us for $500. He sold his for $1,200, then bought a brand-new one for $1,295. He suggested I do the same. I told him that there was no way that I could do that in good conscience, knowing that the person to whom I sold the used welder could get a brand new one for $1,295. "But he wouldn't know that", my friend said. "But I would", said I.
When I bought my tractor, he advised me to play several dealers against each other, going back and forth between them, getting them to successively lower their prices to match the other. "No way", said I. "I know exactly what I want. A 5030HST with 853 loader, HD bucket with bolt-on cutting edge, R4 tires (I later switched that to turfs), a quick-attach, and a block heater. I'm going to call various dealers and ask them to give me their one-time, no haggling, honest, "best" price, period". He thought I was out of my mind, and probably still does, but boy, do I sleep well at night.
My local dealer was $28,000 even. Another dealer was $27,400, and a third was $27,600. OK, no sweat, my local dealer gets the extra 600 bucks for letting me drive his tractors around. Then my friend says "Hey, call Salem (NY) Farm Supply". "Nah", says I. "They're all gonna be around the same price. I'm just gonna give it to my local guy, he's been good to me". "Call Salem Farm Supply". "Nah". "Call Salem Farm Supply". "OK, OK, I'll call Salem Farm Supply". The fax comes through, "$24,950". "Hellllllll-lo", says I.
I went in person to break the news to my local dealer, who is a very, very nice guy. I brought the quote with me so he would understand that my hands were tied as far as I was concerned. Three grand is three grand, and I guess the perhaps sorry conclusion to which I came was that loyalty has its limits. After briefly cursing his antagonists, he said "Well let me get on the phone to Kubota to see if they can do anything". "I'm really sorry (and I was) but it's too late for that. I asked you for your best price, and you gave it to me". He shrugged and put the phone back on its cradle.
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I'll be honest, I have never bought a new car in my life. But when I do, that's exactly how I will buy it. "Give me your best price - you have one shot at it, and I'm not going to try to talk you down". Works for me.
I wish I had a nickel for every tree customer who has tried to talk me down, and a quarter for every one who succeeded, when I was younger and more foolish.
Back in the day, I would cave in at the drop of a hat. Shameful really. Now I know that what I need is what I need, and what I'm worth is what I'm worth, period. I've never given a rip-off price, and I'm not about to. Now, my price is my price, just as my worth is my worth.
I've heard it all, just about. Difference is, now, I'm prepared.
"Well, it'll [taking down a huge, hairy pine tree that I know I'm going to have to "dig down deep" to get to the top of, as I keep telling myself "it's not gonna break, it's not gonna break, it's not gonna break", as I have the Beach Boys' lyrics to "Don't Back Down" (Not my boys - they grit their teeth, they don't back down) playing over and over in my head] be $1,800", says I. "Hmm, how about $1,600", says the customer whose job it just became clear to me I would not be doing. "How about $2,000, how does that sound to you?" Next!
"I can do it [remove about 20 large oaks and pines on a hillside in your back yard, over your beautiful lawn that you have made it very clear you don't want ruined, and you're a repeat customer, and if we hustle our butts off we might be able to make an honest buck] for $4,400", says I. "Well so-and-so can do it for such-and-such - what do you do that he doesn't do?', says the customer whose job I won't be doing either (or so I thought). "Charge what the job is worth, I guess". Next!
(She called me back a month later to finish the job after her yard had been turned into a scene reminscent of an 1800's logging camp, and she had terminated the offender).
"I'll have to ask $2,200 for this job, [with the 3 huge oak and maple trees on it, one of which is smack-dab over your house, and I'm only giving you this price because you're a repeat customer, I know you just spent a fortune keeping your yappy little dog alive, and they're not making you rich down at the phone company]", says I. "Well so and so will do it for such-and-such". "Well that sounds like a great price, I'd jump on that if I were you". Next!
"I have to ask $1,500 to get rid of your huge, gnarly, dead, quadruple white pine way in the back of your property that I'll practically have to build an access road just to get near", says I. "Oh, that's too much", says the opinionated middle-aged urban professional. Out of earshot from said "Muppie", I tell his wife, who has had me look at this tree three times now ... "You know, 'too much' is such a subjective thing. What if I were to ask your husband, So, Sir, what is it you do for a living? Oh, you're an accountant. And how much do you make per year? Oh, $80,000? That's too much". Next!
"Well, it'd be $1,600 [to get rid of that huge oak tree in your back yard, the one you just had reseeded, and why the **** didn't you call me before you re-did your lawn, and I'm giving you this price because you were referred to me by an very good customer of mine]", says I. "Can you do any better", says the customer whose job I will not be doing either. "If I could do any better, there would be a different number on that piece of paper I just handed you". Next!
"Well, it'll be $1,200 [to deal with the large pine tree that is lying on top of your fence in your back yard, plus clean up the 4 other trees it demolished, and how on earth did I ever do jobs like this before I spent close to 50 grand on the tree-bota]", says I. "Well how about trimming all these limbs on these oak trees in my front yard [that I conveniently "forgot" to mention until you had completed your proposal and handed it to me] - can you 'throw those in'", says the customer who ended up paying me an additional sum for the additional work. "Well how about I just take a couple hundred bucks out of my wallet and just give it to you, it's pretty much the same thing, isn't it?". Next!
I could go on, believe me. I could tell you about the absolute worst customer I have ever had, who recently caused me to seriously reconsider my entire "business model", and whose hand I should shake for easing me out of "business as usual", namely said residential tree removal where the degree of loyalty and respect reminds me of Willie Loman's laments in "Death of a Salesman", and into "residential logging", where we take down timber trees in exchange for the timber, at no cost to the customer. Just as profitable, if not more so, and no estimating. Of course, we'll still do residential tree jobs, when the compensation is commensurate with the blood, guts, skill and effort involved.
Anyway, the next time an honest, hard-working man or woman gives you his or her honest price, I encourage you to merely, kindly, and I hope respectfully, say "yea" or "nay", devoid of judgment and subjectivity, with a healthy appreciation for their point of view, their situation, their needs, and their honest efforts on your behalf.
Maybe they'll return the favor for you someday. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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Oops, did I mention that I forgive all these people for any shortcomings that they might have, as I hope they would for give me for mine? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And that any anger that I am foolish enough to feel toward them comes from my own selfish desires to receive appreciation from my fellow man, thereby "filling" me up with feelings of self-worth that rightly must come from within? Just wanted to be clear about that. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
