Decisions - lifting, breakout comparisons?

[LAXPatrick]

Ok, I'm getting closer to my decision... But maybe I'm too hung up on lifting force and breakout.

I'd like to stay at around $15k new for a compact. That puts me in the range of the JD 4010 with loader and MM mower or a Kubota 7510 similarly equipped.

The JD advertises higher lifting force and breakout - significantly higher than the Kubota. I'd like to do some light excavating of some packed dirt, thus my concerns.

Seems kinda backwards - the JD has a smaller engine but more power on the loader (882 lift, 2257 breakout vs. 770/1120 on the Kubotas).

Thoughts? I'm going to use the tractor to mow a couple of acres, push snow on a 100yd long driveway, drag/prep a horse arena, move manure and dirt on occasion.

Thanks!

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Be VERY careful with your numbers. Lifting and Breakout are different for the SAME loader when measured at different points on the SAME tractor! So when comparing 2 different tractors, you have to figure out WHERE the measurements are taken from to make your comparision.

Off the top of my head, I would guess that the breakout force measurements on the 2 tractors you are comparing are being measured at different points since the two numbers are so far apart. Breakout force measured at the PIVOT POINT will be HIGHER than breakout force measured at 19" in front of the pivot point (about the mid point of the bucket). And the breakout force, if measured at the bucket lip, will be even lower than the midpoint. So I strongly suspect that JD is measureing at the pivot point while Kubota is measuring at the bucket lip or mid-point.

Regarding lifting capacity, again, measured at the ground level, you will get one reading, measure it at 12" above the ground you will get another reading, and measured at FULL height and you will get yet a third measurement.


What does all this mean? Not much to most homeowners. Unless you really need the most available, the reality is that both tractors will likely do what you need done and lift pretty close to the same. My GUESS is that the Kubota loader is a bit weaker than the JD loader, but that is becuase my experience with Kubota loaders shows them to be SLIGHLY lower in capacity than many other brands. In the real world it doesn't mean a lot unless you are using it for your job and your job is to lift heavy stuff, but if that is the case, then you wouldn't be looking at either of these tractors.

I prefer the curved arm loaders of the New Holland, Case and Kioti tractors. All 3 brands have better visibility than either Kubota or John Deere. All 3 brands have greater capacity than Kubota or JD. Here is a visual comparision between the NH style curved arms and the Kubota arms that I took in my driveway (I had to keep the engines revved up high to keep my daughter sitting still /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) Curved arm VS straght arm loaders For the record, both of these tractors are larger than what you are considering, but it does show an interesting visual comparision between 2 loaders that are of similar (but not equal) capacities.

The question to you is really how important is the breakout and lift? If you are like most, you will be moving mulch and dirt and occasionally stone. Either loader will do that. Now if you are tying to dump the load over the side of a pick up truck, then very carefully lift to see how much you can lift to full height, and see if full height is high enough to dump over the side of the truck.

 

[ducati996]

Nice Job Bob in explaining! its confusing how mfg specify their equipment, this helps to understand why...

Ducati

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Ducati . . . I have strong opinions on loaders, but the reality is that on similar size tractors most of them are reasonably close to each other. Sometimes too strong of a loader is put on tractors, I read about more broken spider gears, front axles, etc on Jinma tractors than any other brand and I believe it is due to the high capacity loaders that they are outfitted with more than a weakness in the tractor. In fact, the tractors appear strong, but SOME of the loaders used on some of the smaller Jinmas are simply too high a capacity. As for actual use, I strongly prefer the curved arm loaders. My comments are well documented (ad nasium) in the archives.

I think the other thing that people sometimes get hung up on are the 3pt lift capacities. I have yet to find a small tractor that is not capable of THEORETICALLY lifting something about as heavy as a house. In virtually every case, these little machines we play with actually cannot lift to their full potential simply because the 3pt capacity is so high that the front end of the tractor lifts off the ground long before the capacity on the 3pt is reached.

All these numbers probably mean more when the tractors get bigger because as size goes up, so does the work that needs to be done. And for commercial machines I might consider capacity to be critical. But there are so many other factors that come into play like manuverability, visibility, and ergonomics.

Buy what you like, what is comfortable for you, from a dealer who is able to support you with parts and service and who will still be around in 10 or 15 years when your tractor might actually need service.

 

[LAXPatrick]

Wow. Very helpful.

Sounds like I can't go wrong in any case for the jobs I'm anticipating...

Still trying to decide if I can get by with a BX2230, 4010, or if I need to move up to, say a TC23/24/26.

Appreciate this and other input!

PC

 

[Bob_Skurka]

The photo I included was the view from the seat of the TC24 (now discontinued and replaced by the TC26) as it compared to the view of a B2910. I find the TC24 with the 12LA to be a great combination and I like using it for FEL work more than I like using the B2910. Capacities are very similar between the two, likely because the B2910 is a very light weight tractor (but still made very well, in about 4 years it has started every time without a hiccup or belch and that machine still purrs as smoothly as Kubotas are known for).

The real question is do you need to move up based on your tasks. Most people will argue to buy bigger. I often argue the opposite. Figure out your LONG TERM goals and LONG TERM tasks. Any tractor of any size can tear up your yard and build you something similar to a mini Great Wall of China. The question is how long will it take, and then the follow up question is what do you need to do after you build your own world wonder. A small tractor will take longer to construct your project than a large one. On the other hand, 2 years from now when you are done with your heavy projects, will the larger tractor be too big?

 

[rockyridgefarm]

<font color="blue"> I prefer the curved arm loaders of the New Holland, Case and Kioti tractors. All 3 brands have better visibility than either Kubota or John Deere. </font>

ComeOn, bob, JD is in the curved loader camp, now...

I had a chance to try the 400X loader on a JD 4320 and it really is a significant improvement. I am not sure why they went to the straight section at the bucket, but from the operators position it works great. If anything, it might move the bucket out farther then the NHKioti setup....

Good answers, on the moving yardsticks....

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Mike, you are correct, the larger JD units can accept the new curved arm loader. However, the original poster was talking about much smaller tractors so I was referring to the smaller curved arm units. In fact, when you get up to the size of loader you are referring to, only John Deere, New Holland and Case make curved arm units because Kioti only offers curved arm loaders on 3 machines.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

OK I missed that he was looking at the 4110!

The mid series Deere loaders now only come in curved arms...

The 3120, 3320, 3520 and 3720 replace the Deere 4210, 4310, and 4410 and accept the 300 series loaders.

A safe bet is that a 200 series curved arm loader will be unveiled soon. That would take care of the 2210, and 4010-4115...