Diesel hard to start, boggs down,quits running

crazyhorsemd · Apr 10, 2017

I need some well seasoned advice. I'll get right to the point
Have a White 1370 4 cyl diesel, bought 6 years ago. Always rather hard to start, Starter turns over motor but if it doesn't start after 6-7 attempts the battery appears drained. New battery this year 1000 CCA, plenty of power!
Also, if it takes some time to crank, oil from the breather appears to come back out of the breather all over the battery. This has occurred since I got it. Oil level in breather checked, proper level...It does seem to start a little easier if I take the oil bath bowl off
Starting last fall, after starting, ( no new smoke..usual small amount white when starting) it runs fine, no new knocks, missing... after about 30 minutes it loses power over about 20 seconds and quits...then hard to crank and start. Change fuel filters last year, no sediment in glass bowl, drained tank and checked filter screens along system over winter, could not find anything "unusual" , water /sludge / excess sediment. Only thing I've noticed, I don't hear the thermostarter "Pop" before starting like I used to. I don't think this should effect the running only starting.
I'm still learning about Diesels...every day

appreciate any assistance from the experts with experience

Crazyhorsemd

thepumpguysc · Apr 10, 2017

There is a hidden filter inside the inj. pump inlet..
If your handy w/ wrenches.. shut off the fuel or pinch the line..
Remove the 15/16" inlet nut and spring.. With a small screwdriver hold the guts down and with a 90* scribe, reach in & pull up on the plastic filter.. blow it off & reinstall..
DO NOT let the internals come out.. good luck.

Texasmark · Apr 11, 2017

Hard starting can be low compression since compression is what heats the air so that the diesel mist will explode when injected.....I learned that on the first diesel tractor I bought. This one won't help hard starting, but if you fuel tank isn't vented or the vent isn't working you could develop a vapor lock condition, not due to heat but due to a vacuum in the tank...you're sucking fuel out of it but no air is coming in to replace the fuel so sooner or later you have a vacuum and when strong enough it will stop the engine from getting fuel.

Jerry/MT · Apr 12, 2017

crazyhorsemd said:
I need some well seasoned advice. I'll get right to the point
Have a White 1370 4 cyl diesel, bought 6 years ago. Always rather hard to start, Starter turns over motor but if it doesn't start after 6-7 attempts the battery appears drained. New battery this year 1000 CCA, plenty of power!
Also, if it takes some time to crank, oil from the breather appears to come back out of the breather all over the battery. This has occurred since I got it. Oil level in breather checked, proper level...It does seem to start a little easier if I take the oil bath bowl off
Starting last fall, after starting, ( no new smoke..usual small amount white when starting) it runs fine, no new knocks, missing... after about 30 minutes it loses power over about 20 seconds and quits...then hard to crank and start. Change fuel filters last year, no sediment in glass bowl, drained tank and checked filter screens along system over winter, could not find anything "unusual" , water /sludge / excess sediment. Only thing I've noticed, I don't hear the thermostarter "Pop" before starting like I used to. I don't think this should effect the running only starting.
I'm still learning about Diesels...every day

appreciate any assistance from the experts with experience

Crazyhorsemd

You're right about the Thermostart- it will effect starting if it's not working, especially in cold weather.
Did you check the tank outlet strainer when you drained the tank? Crud in the tank can clog he strainer and restrict fuel flow. Some filters have several o-rings in the box and one of them should not be used because it will restrict fuel flow through the filter. Did you properly bleed the system after you replaced the filters? Are all the fittings tight so they can't suck any air?

Does your tractor have a lift pump to provide fuel to the injector pump? Some have screens that can clog and they must provide 3-5 psi to the injector pump inlet for the system to perform properly. If you have a lift pump have you checked the screen and delivery pressure to the injector pump?

The other guys have also given you good advice.

crazyhorsemd · Apr 13, 2017

I really appreciate the advice... I am at a loss
I checked / removed the lift pump screen..it was clean, checked / bled system so fuel pumps out injector lines. Drained tank but did not check tank outlet strainer. I did remove fuel line from the tank cut off valve and fuel ran out quickly. would it do this if the strainer is clogged?? Fittings appear tight. Even checked thermostarter...it fires up fuel in air intake. Still sounds like a fuel thing. When it starts...runs for about 15-20+ minutes then it loses power, over 15+ seconds and dies. Have not checked Vane (injector pump fuel inlet ) screen but will.

Thanks to all
Crazyhorsemd

Texasmark · Apr 14, 2017

crazyhorsemd said:
Have not checked Vane (injector pump fuel inlet ) screen but will.
Thanks to all
Crazyhorsemd

On the "Have not checked Vane (injector pump fuel inlet ) screen but will." comment, I just had a thought. If you have a clogged filter screen, you have a clogged filter screen. It won't magically unclog when you turn the machine off and upon restarting, clog right back up just like it did before so that the engine dies just like it did the last time you had it running.

How about this easy test. Get ready to crack a fuel line at an injector. Run it through it's paces till it quits and immediately crack (one at a time) each injector cap, running the starter to turn the pump and see if you have fuel. If so, you can forget the fuel source starving, and maybe even the pump and look elsewhere.

Where? Good question. Let's wait for your answer from the above procedure.

GManBart · Apr 14, 2017

The lift pump style that tractor uses is prone to failure. It's like the kind they used on cars many years ago, and they used to rebuild them on a regular basis to prevent the problem. The good thing is it's an easy swap, and the pump isn't usually expensive.

thepumpguysc · Apr 14, 2017

I TOTALLY agree w/ the lift pump suggestion.. Its the easiest and most cost effective thing to change/clean.. its usually 1 bolt/screw and theres the filter screen..
TMark, I'm gonna have to correct you on the inj. pump filter tho.. those little buggers will cause havoc 10-15-20 minutes after starting..
It just depends on the load your putting on the engine.. if its clogged, it'll run FINE at idle and as soon as you put a load on the machine where the engine needs more fuel.. down she goes..
it all depends on the rate of "clogness".. Granted, there are a handful of things to check before ripping into an injection pump..
Flow from the tank, filter screen IN the tank outlet, filter cleanliness and CORRECT INSTALLATION.. LIFT PUMP operation & filter cleanliness.. THEN, HIDDEN inj. pump filter..

Texasmark · Apr 14, 2017

thepumpguysc said:
I TOTALLY agree w/ the lift pump suggestion.. Its the easiest and most cost effective thing to change/clean.. its usually 1 bolt/screw and theres the filter screen..
TMark, I'm gonna have to correct you on the inj. pump filter tho.. those little buggers will cause havoc 10-15-20 minutes after starting..
It just depends on the load your putting on the engine.. if its clogged, it'll run FINE at idle and as soon as you put a load on the machine where the engine needs more fuel.. down she goes..
it all depends on the rate of "clogness".. Granted, there are a handful of things to check before ripping into an injection pump..
Flow from the tank, filter screen IN the tank outlet, filter cleanliness and CORRECT INSTALLATION.. LIFT PUMP operation & filter cleanliness.. THEN, HIDDEN inj. pump filter..

You can't argue with a guy that has been there done that since I haven't . Just doesn't make sense that you can have that kind of a problem repeat itself to the letter and it be a filter screen clogging the same amount at the same time after starting, at who knows what operating condition each time. Thanks for the correction.

crazyhorsemd · Apr 17, 2017

OK all, I appreciate all the suggestions...Here we go.....
All screens checked including pump inlet, lift pump..even changed fuel filters again. lines from tank fuel runs well, bled system (I've done this before andworked well then) so I think no air in system. The lift pump pumps fuel well so I don't think it is a concern/question...would the lift pump pump fuel when pressed but still be defective? I really thought it was a fuel issue but now I'm not sure
Now stay with me. New 1000 CCA battery and + cable, the - looks good but the darn thing doesn't turn over well just chugs, seems very slow almost to slow to fire over. after 7-10 tries the battery just doesn't have any more to give. even jumped with my truck appears to lack starting power. Could this be the ground wire poor connection (looks good but could be cleaner) a starter issue or solenoid or @@@ fobid a compression issue. as before , it never turned over with umph (even in the dead of summer) like my gas engines, thought it was just a diesel thing
Hang with me I'm trying my darndest to figure this out

thanks again
crazyhorsemd

Texasmark · Apr 17, 2017

First of all you need heat to explode diesel mist. Heat comes from high compression and high starting rpms. Low voltage to the starter won't give you the necessary rpms to get going in a timely manner. It (the electrical system) has nothing to do with your diesel after it's running and certainly is not part of your "stops 20 minutes down the line". Diesels run on fuel, compression, and correct timing. Remove one and it stops....that simple . No electricity, no static, no radio interference, no battery (once started) all that sparkie stuff.

If you are having hard starting issues you have to have a fully charged battery, CCA of adequate size and battery with the capability to deliver it with low internal resistance, and all connections (including the cables and crimped on lugs) between the starter terminals, the stud and the case, have to be shiny (inside where the current flows) and tight. If you have 10 V at your starter when cranking you have a good system. Anything less and you have a loafer somewhere in what I mentioned above.

crazyhorsemd · Apr 18, 2017

Can't think you for all the info. Needless to say I'm new at Diesels ( and tractors) Have all the shop manuals , willing to learn and try but there is no replacement for experience and that, you all have. I'll double check all connections and voltage. I believe that a new 1000 CCA battery should be adequate..though I will check the manuals. You don't think it is a compression issue? I don't...seems it would not have started before. Now it's been down 2 weeks.
I'll give it a shot and post back...thanks for your patience

Cravyhorsemd

crazyhorsemd · Apr 25, 2017

OK ALL...Still working on it Here we go
Changed, removed , cleaned all fuel delivery filters....replaced lift pump, replaced fuel, bled system ..replaced (-) lead with 0 gauge, even doubled (+) connection to starter solenoid (Had 2 #2 leads so I connected them to make darn sure all power got to starter) checked replaced all fuses and cleaned terminals. NOW...engine turns over quicker..white smoke from stack, appears to "want" to start but doesn't fire. But..as before after 4-5 attempts I need to jump the battery to supply enough power...the battery just runs out of juice. Leave on jumper after 5-10 minutes then get enough to try again. I'm starting to think compression issue but have no way to check. In the past (winter) a "shot" of ether worked, didn't use a lot and only rarely but now it doesn't help.

dclynch · Apr 25, 2017

If you bought the tractor and it always had a hard time starting you may want to have the starter checked out. I had a similar experience when I got my tractor it started hard and I went through the same pain new battery crank a few times and jump. When I finally replaced the starter I could not believe how the new one turned the motor over it was night and day different. Never had a starting issue since, I know this won't help the 15-20 min run time but maybe a good idea to pull the starter and have it checked out.

Texasmark · Apr 25, 2017

You are getting combustion with the visible white smoke which is moisture which accumulates as a byproduct of combustion in a cold environment. You have to spin her up to get the heat needed to explode the diesel mist. She's trying but you aren't quite there yet. Really, you shouldn't have to run down your battery to get your tractor started. I'd find out how to and find a tester and start with a compression test. A 15:1 compression ratio should be enough, so 15x14.7=220 psi minimum with all injectors and air intake filtering removed, fully charged battery. If you pass that test then start looking elsewhere for problems; injectors clogged, fuel restricted, clogged air intake, timing retarded due to wear on the engine/pump gears, pump pressure/injector pressure popoff low failing to properly mist fuel.

crazyhorsemd · Apr 27, 2017

Still at it.....
Three questions:
1. could the injector pump get off timing without taking it off or apart? I keep reading so much about injector timing issues and it seems that some are implying that it can.
2. Fuel return lines.. The thermastarter bowl is not filling from the return line. Possibly since it is not running enough or blockage. Would blockage cause any of these issues, starting / running / bogging down and quitting?
3. Plan to have starter tested.. If bad, would anyone recommend a Gear reduction starter vs regular. Seems the gear reduction would give more torque and spin for less power required.

Thanks
don't mean to be a pain, just want to exhaust options before paying out the rear.

DieselBound · Apr 27, 2017

You've got a couple issues going on here.

First is your starting issue. I'd pull the started and look to clean it up: sometimes that's all that's needed- they tend to get gunked up, grease on bushes try up and the thing just binds. Probably best to take this on a step-by-step basis and do a voltage drop test first, as this would tell you if the starter is in fact drawing more power than it should: but if the starter hasn't never been touched and it's easy to remove I'd just do it to get that checked off the "done" list).

Second issue, and the bigger problem, is why your engine is stopping after it's been running for several minutes. I highly doubt that your timing is managing to shift consistently to cause this in the repeatable fashion that it sounds like you're experiencing. This has all the marks of it being a fueling issue. I'd take a vacuum pump and do a fuel draw back to the tank to see how hard fuel is pulling. If it seems OK then move on. If it doesn't seem OK then look for blockages: debris in the tank CAN be somewhat consistent in reorienting itself into the stream causing blockage- I recently experienced this with my new tractor, though it ended up being water (ice chunks kept pulling into the tank outlet and shutting off fuel flow- in this case the engine would run only a few seconds and then die). If you have any sort of fuel shuttoff (as most diesels tend to, though what kind it may be I cannot say) I'd check that that's operating properly: could be a bad wire that causes a voltage drop or the like. Check over all fuel lines: soft lines can collapse.

If you have (good) fuel, have reasonable starter RPMs and you have air (assuming timing is close enough) then the engine fires and runs.

crazyhorsemd · Aug 6, 2017

OK All,
it's been months since last wrote
Roll started diesel and finally got started after sitting for 4 months, ran for about 10 minutes then slowly lost power and died. Pumped lift pump 20-30 times, roll started again, ran 2-3 minutes again slowly lost power and died. This repeated several times. Now I'm thinking injector pump failure. Any thoughts???I have always felt that I had a fuel issue though could not any restrictions to fuel flow. When I pump lift pump a bunch and roll start it runs well. ?? fuel not getting to injector pump or not from injector pump. If latter the case then why does it run after using the lift pump.
Still, labors to start as before, as stated above, 1000 CCA battery, new wires, good connections battery turns over engine 4-5 times then really labors to turn over. Could a failing injector pump just not supply enough pressure to allow injectors to vaporize fuel correctly in order to start???

I'm not giving up
I'm going to get this solved
Thanks to all

Crazyhorsemd

thepumpguysc · Aug 6, 2017

Take the lift pump apart & inspect OR REPLACE.. they're only like 40.00..
Get the starter rebuilt or replaced.. plenty of options online..
IF you cant get fuel to it OR crank it, how are you going to diagnose a fuel problem??
Personally I would borrow/rent a compression tester BEFORE rebuilding or replacing ANYTHING..

crazyhorsemd · Sep 5, 2017

Still at it....unfortunately but here goes
Keep thinking a fuel issue...Took off fuel tank, cleaned it out....not real dirty inside for 40 + years, replaced fuel lines, another set of fuel filters, rechecked all filter screens...clean. Bled system and got it started. Actually runs well , no knocking, odd noises, smoking .... It ran for 20 minutes then lost power and died. Unable to restart turns over a couple times but battery dies out. (Battery new 1000 CCA, multimeter test good) Sat overnight, restarted yesterday. ran good about 20 minutes then dies out < liked starved for fuel....again trying to restart, really seems like it doesn't want to turn over and battery dies after 4-5 attempts. No blow by when running. It kind of reminds me of Vapor lock on gas engines years ago...not sure if this happens to diesels an why now would this show up??? Only thing left is the injector pump. Does this sound like an injector pump issue? Neighbor stopped by when it was running and died, agrees that appeared like fuel issue. Also, new lift pump installed..after starting this issue no real difference..could be a bad one though??? (It installed easily...is there anything I need to know about installing one??? He did mention seeing small fuel drops occasionally about injector pump thought " if leaking somewhere possibly sucking air. Still doesn't explain why runs for 20 minutes , dies out then doesn't want to restart I AM NOT GIVING UP When it's running it throttles up well, runs smooth no smoke