Oil & Fuel Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP

   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #31  
<font color="red">Wait I'm on a roll , I do like to discuss engines and the dynamics of any given setup (yes I'm a gear head) okok ill stop for now ,hope it helps?? </font>

You mean, an inline engine having more torque than a "V"?
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #32  
A HP is a HP is very true. The difference is how you use the HP. Take the exact same makes of tractors, put a set of turfs on one and a set of ag's on the other one. Which one will win the pull? I know the ag's, but I forgot to tell you they were pulling on asphalt!!!!!! Have one in high gear and one in low gear!!!!! I would even imagine the driver could have something do to with a pull. My point is that both are making pretty close to the same HP and all other factors are the same, but if you change a few things in the equation one pulls better than the other.
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #33  
I hate to mix religous arguments, but I will toss this one in as well. I think the difference between the torque curves is much more apparent with a gear-drive vs a hydrostat driven tractor.


The difference between gas and desiel is only going to be apparant when you lug the engine down. On a tractor, you typically set the RPM's up near the "rated speed" part of the power curve.

With a manual transmission, the torque curve matters a bit more because when you engage the clutch, the engine is forced to match speed with the drivetrain (or visa-versa). Especially when you are trying to pull on something that doesn't move, you need a torque curve that stays high all the way down to zero RPM's.

Electric motors are really good at that - they generate their maximum torque at stall! Thats why train locomotives use eleectric drive.

With a hydrostat, the continuosly variable drive ratio allows the engine to stay at the power peak and not be lugged down as easily. If you could build a perfect hydrostatic pump and motor, you could theortically go to infinite torque at zero speed. Real-world hydrostats and hydraulic motors are limited by their max pressures, iternal leakages and other internal power losses.

When using an electronically-controlled "load-matching" transmission, it will be even harder to lug the gas engine down out of its torque band - the transmission won't let you do the equivalent of mashing the hydro petal down to its highest ratio.

I think the bare engines are fairly accurately rated based on dyno curves. The peak power will be within the "red-line" range. However, the peak power point may not be within the RPM range for the application the motor is used in. For example on a lawn mower, they may set the governer below the peak HP point so as to stay under the max blade tip speed required by safety regulations. In a tractor, they may use the same engine in a bunch of different models with various final drive ratios and wheel sizes.

- Rick

FYI, Most horses cannot sustain "one horsepower" of output for very long. Also, ironically, the term "HorsePower" was supposedly originally suggested by James Watt, the guy that the metric unit of power "Watt" is named after.

- Rick
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #34  
Just a thought about the original question 25hp gas vs. 25hp diesel. I would guess that the weights of these two engines will be quite a bit different, the diesel being the heavier unit.

With both engines turning at the same RPM wouldn't the heavier engine have a greater flywheel effect?

Randy
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Thanks for all the replies. Let's see if I've got it. Referring to my original question.... (Paraphrased) Two identical compact tractors with 25HP engines except one is gasoline and the other is diesel. Why is the diesel so much more powerful? Answer: Because the torque of a gasoline engine is generally a small percentage, greater or smaller, than its HP rating while the torque rating of a diesel engine is almost double or even many times greater than its HP rating. This being the case, most people (not counting me) already understood that HP ratings reasonably compare gas engines to gas engines and diesel engines to diesel engines since the torque ratings will also compare reasonably well, especially when comparing engines of similar sizes. However, HP ratings do not make sense when comparing gasoline engines to diesel engines for the converse reasons (i.e. we are no longer comparing apples to apples). The reason HP ratings are stated on the hoods of most of our machinery is marketing, which correctly understands that us comsumers love HORSEPOWER!
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #36  
To make things even more complicated, lets throw a torque converter into the mix. This is a device that converts a high input speed into torque, usually with the ability to work even if the output is held at zero speed.

The right torque converter would allow some high-revving gas engine to be used in a low-torque application and would tend to flatten out the torque curve down near zero RPM. Great for pulling on things.

The problem with torque converters is efficeincy. Most are viscous-fluid-based. They turn a lot of the input power into heat.

Feathering a clutch is also a torque conversion operation. Do it too long and the clutch burns up.

A real-world hydrostat system also functions somewhat like a torque converter as well. The pressure-relief and leakage/bypass of the pump allow for output torque at low output speeds. Even if the output is held at zero RPM's, the input engine can still run at RPM's up in its torque band instead of stalling.

Again, the problem here is efficiency. All that power has to go somewhere. Since it is not going to the output shaft (its not turning, remember), it goes out as heat.

On the other side of the coin are gear-drives. Gear drives can be built at very high ratios and still be fairly efficient. As long as the output shaft is not stopped dead, the input engine torque can be leveraged up quite a bit. In most situations, the slight slippage of the wheels and elasticity in the drive-train provides that little bit of torque conversion to prevent stalling at start-up.

Finally, I will call your attention to top-fuel tractor-pulling machines. They are not low RPM diesel devices at all. They are top-fuel, very-high revving machines. Also, the wheels are not geared down all that much. They work by using the slippage of the wheels on the ground as a torque conversion mechanism. The cool thing about doing it this way is that half the heat is disappated for free - literally left behind in the dust. The other half of the heat of torque conversion is in the tires, but since they spin pretty fast, there is a lot of air cooling going on. Since the event is so short, the tires don't completely melt off.

Meanwhile, the high-revving, top-fuel engine is spinning like mad, way past any kind of long-term sustainable red-line, making 1000's of horsepower and 10's of thousands of RPM'.s

So, I think that to to make the 300 HP gas-powered pickup out-pull the 90HP diesel tractor in a tug-of-war style pull-off, you could just put some big meaty (monster truck) tires on it and spin them like mad. (assuming equal ballasted weights as well).

- Rick
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #37  
Yep, I do believe you got it.
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #38  
<font color="blue"> So, I think that to to make the 300 HP gas-powered pickup out-pull the 90HP diesel tractor in a tug-of-war style pull-off, you could just put some big meaty (monster truck) tires on it and spin them like mad. (assuming equal ballasted weights as well).
</font>

If you don't change the gearing (BIG time), it'll stall. Bigger tires mean you need lower gearing. Besides that, that gas engine reaches it's maximum torque at the wrong RPM (for pulling). When a gas engine looses RPMs, it also looses torque. When a diesel looses RPMs, the torque curve comes into play and rises.
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #39  
No one's explained WHY diesel engines have more torque. I think it's in the CR. Most diesel engines are around 23 CR; say it's 24. Most gasoline engines are 9-13; say it's 12. This means the diesel engine has double the force on the piston at combustion. They're also generally lower speed engines; so manufacturers may put longer cranks on the crankshaft. This will also magnify the torque. Add in a higher temperature at start of combustion and possibly a higher, longer-lasting combustion. This also raises the pressure in the combustion chamber a tad, further increasing torque.

So, this is how it's done in the engine. Add some huge gear reduction that'll magnify torque, and you can easily see how a 90 hp tractor could pull a 290 hp truck all over the place.

Ralph
 
   / Diesel HP vs Gasoline HP #40  
Ralph, I agree with the CR being the big difference in engine torque. That and I guess the added weight of a diesel engine.

One way to visualize the CR difference vs torque is to think about a 1 cylinder diesel with a CR of 18 to 1 and a 1 cyliner gas at 9 to 1.
 

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