Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors

   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #11  
We do agree that it's a sad story.

I read a local newspaper account of the trial. The article mentioned that the stick in question "carried some heft" so to speak, and the jury thought it could be used as a "dangerous weapon".

Also, although Brooks was 74 years old, we don't know (or I didn't read it) about his physical shape (I know a couple of "old timer" farmers who are in pretty good shape).

Per the post here, 5 rounds were discharged in the "killing".

Although this may seem like too many rounds to be used in "self defense", it's not uncommon for many people who have to use a firearm in self defense to keep shooting until the magazine is empty or the gun "can't shoot" anymore. Numerous variables, biggest being adrenaline (sp?).

The fact that he only shot five rounds (and he could of had a 15 round magazine) at least "tells me" that he could of stopped shooting when he thought Brooks "was down".

I don't know this for a fact.

But...the jury did find him (Ames) not guilty (and I know, that may not mean anything) but the trail wasn't held in California, so I have to reason that the jury did look at all the circumstances.
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #12  
I've had formal training in the handling of firearms including the how's, why's and when to use deadly force and to a "T" the instruction was if you have to use a firearm in self defence that you shoot to kill. Emptying the magazine/clip is the norm in these situations as panic has already set in.

It's a shame this situation escalated to the point where one had to shoot the other.
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #13  
If your formal training taught to "shoot to kill", get your money back. Your instructor was completely incompetent. Proper training is to shoot "to stop the threat". (Which includes shooting until the threat is no longer a threat.) A common side effect of this is that the person dies, but that is never the objective.

A lawyer's difference? Yes, precisely. That's the point. If your training didn't stress that all important difference, you didn't have competent training.



On another note, it's sure easy to second guess a jury that had ALL the evidence and testimony, isn't it? I mean, we all have the advantage of knowing only what the papers print or the radio/television reports. We couldn't possibly be wrong, could we? No, we MUST know more than the jury!





/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #14  
My formal firearm instruction began with the NRA, then I recieved very extensive firearm instruction in the United States Marine Corps and inorder to aquire a handgun carry permit in the state of TN I had to attend a state certified handgun training course. The latter two dealing specifically in how to subdue physical threats. All of these afore mentioned organizations are either state or federally certified and hardly incompetent.
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #15  
NRA certified instructors are a mixed bag. Some are excellent. Some are certifiable idiots.

The Marines don't have to worry about legal issues of civilian self defense, so it's understandable if they don't concern themselves with a lawer's difference about shooting to stop vs. shooting to kill. No liberal, anti-gun (or just plain stupid) District Attorney is going to try to find a way to convict their people of murder for what they do out on a battlefield. In fact, I suspect most of us would agree that, given the nature of their work, to teach OTHER than shoot to kill would be idiotic. However, to transfer THAT training to the civilian world would also be idiotic. (At least as far as how you talk about it.)

As for state licensing courses, most are a joke. Also see comment on NRA instructors. This level of instruction is LCD.

Lowest Common Denominator.

If you want some REAL firearms training, try one (or more) of these:

http://www.defense-training.com/

http://www.valhallatraining.com/

http://www.awt-co.com/

http://www.sigarmsacademy.com/

http://gunsite.com/

http://thunderranchinc.com/.

http://chapmanacademy.com/about.shtml

http://www.firearmsacademy.com/
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #16  
It is idiotic for an individual to think that they can draw down on an aggressive threat, have the time to draw their weapon, take aim for a non-lethal spot on said threat and then fire only one shot and the threat is subdued!

If you fire more than one shot then your point is moot /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

And if one has the time to draw their weapon, set up, take very careful aim and squeeze off a round before the threat has overcome him, the aggressors lawyer can argue that the shooters motive was premeditated or not even necessary... Plus be responsibile for pesonal damages should the round hit a non lethal spot and wound the aggressor....

I'm sure all those fine training facilities you linked use human silhouette's as targets and I'm sure the bullseye/highest score is in the center of the chest, the always lethal heart shot. I've yet to see any target or any instructor teach to aim and shoot for a leg, arm, hand or any other non-lethal spot. That only happens in Cowboy movies....

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( However, to transfer THAT training to the civilian world would also be idiotic. (At least as far as how you talk about it.)
)</font>
No I believe your argument is now idiotic... Perhaps you've had your narrow mind deep in whatever kind of thoughts you exercise but federal troops, thats right, ARMED Marines, Army & National Guard have been called out to preserve peace and stop rampant looting in New Orleans just alittle over a week ago and yes, the idiotic Gov of LA indicated on national TV that they were instructed to shoot to kill!
That my friend wasn't a war zone nor had war been declared.

Go on ahead and dig up 4 or 5 more links that basically backs up what I originally said, but be advised that your name calling and the very wide stroke you paint several organizations with isn't helping your cause /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Volfandt
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #17  
You comments are the EXACT reason why the military will never make a good police force, somthing our politicians (sp?) will NEVER understand.

Sites you listed are "top notch" centers (been to one you listed myself, and not the one through Sig).

Heck, at one time I thought those "training centers" were for "panzies" who didn't have the kahoonas enough to do somthing else /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Shoot to stop the threat? You point a gun, you shoot to kill, either in the military or civilian(sp?) world (in a "perfect world" two to the chest, one to the head).

In civilian "life" for the last 14 years I have had to use a gun ZERO times in self defense. Do I carry hollow points? Do I carry single action "cocked and locked"? Do I worry about what a laywer(sp?) "will use agaisnt me" if I have to use my weapon? Heck, anytime in civialian(sp?) life you have to draw a weapon, you WILL be in some sort of court proceedings(sp?). I have to laugh. Shoot to stop the threat? We're talking legal "mumbo jumbo". The threat is "neautralized"(sp?) when the "threat" in question is no longer moving (and guess what the "subject" is when they are no longer moving, WITH bullet holes in them... six feet under).

In most cases, Shakespeare(sp?) was right about the lawyers(sp?).

Apologies if anyone "misunderstood" my statement. You must stop the threat, and make sure that you don't kill the threat. I would not want anyone who would want to take my life to die in the process of his/her actions in trying to take my life, and I would not want to take the life of another human being at any cost /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

And if I were to "stop the threat", I would preform CPR, call the ambulance(sp), apply pressure if needed to stop any bleeding, and inform the "subjects" mother that he/she is injured(sp?) and make sure that they are all right and apologize if they hurt anywhere.

At least some states HAVE requirments before you can carry a concealable (sp?) weapon.

Apologies for getting off the topic. We could go "real political" here /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (and I won't even get on Cooper).
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #18  
My home defense weapon is a Mossberg 3-1/2" magnum 12 gage shotgun loaded with "00" buckshot. Anyone foolish enough to break and enter my home while I am there will depart the premises bound for the morgue, not a hospital.

In a split second decision between survival and death, there is no time to wonder: "Hmm, maybe I should aim for the legs".
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #19  
Good choice of a home defender there. Have you thought about adding a surefire flashlight mounted to the barell with a push button pad ? It can make the difference between shooting the wrong person in the dark after awaking from a deep sleep. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I too would rather to be judged by 9, than carried by 6 to a funeral. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
   / Discussed before - Outcome of feuding neighbors #20  
Never thought of that. Can you post a link?

I actually do fire drills and intruder drills with my family. The alarm system has distinctive warbles for fire or intrusion. For a night intrusion alarm, SOP is to stay put and get down. Fire SOP is to get out and meet at the well pump. Pretty **** huh? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Better safe than sorry. Get it right in practice - Get it right in life.
 

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