Ditch prep for Water Line service ?

[CurlyDave]

Haven't considered running PEX underground. I like the conduit sleeve idea. Any elaboration on how that worked out for you or other constraints relative to that approach?

I have never worked with PEX before we built our new house. When I built the old one, copper was the preferred material.

Anyway, the Pex came from the main water hook-up to the house, out through the drain rock (compacted road base rock) under the slab, and on out to the PCV from the well. So far no problems, but no problems with the PVC either.

The gas line was some sort of flexible line which only had to be in conduit where it went under concrete. The route went under my driveway, and it was going to take more than a week for the gas line installer to get there, so I put in conduit to be able to close the trench across the driveway.

The propane company owner and a very stout (strong stout, not fat stout) helper in his late 20s pulled 180' of gas line through the conduit with no trouble at all.

 

[SLOBuds]

Anyway, the Pex came from the main water hook-up to the house, out through the drain rock (compacted road base rock) under the slab, and on out to the PCV from the well. So far no problems, but no problems with the PVC either.

Even more interesting. I imagined you running PEX between 2 outbuildings, not direct from the well. Conduit should be just fine, I would imagine. One time I had to run French Drain line under a gravel driveway so I shoved it into a long piece of huge schedule 40. Crack myself up everytime I think about the over-engineering. (And expense!)

Do you find this underground PEX application to be prominent or otherwise gaining popularity in your area? Just don't see it here at all. Not that I'm in construction trade mind you. I see plenty of reference to PEX being installed within the house.

Did you buy or did you rent that PEX crimper, and was it hard to learn how to use? I've read that the crimping has to be done perfectly or else you could have problems.

Thanks.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm not up on PEX enough to know all the rules on it yet, but I'd be very cuatious when comparing water lines to gas lines. Water moves pipes around. Preasure increases and decreases cause constant motion in plumbing lines all the time and are a major source of failure. Pipe can only take some much movement until something breaks. Enclosing a water line inside of another line increses the amount of movement that you will get in that water line, whether is side to size flexing, or end to end travel.

In California, where I spent a season jetting water lines, it was very important to make sure the sand was all the way around the pipe and that the pipe was solid in the sand. Jetting is where you put a pipe into the sand and force water into the sand until you fill up the trench anc colapse the sand around the pipe. Sand will self compact with the water and when you got enough water in there, you could see it happen. Then the contractor would check to see how much sand was above the pipe and add more if needed. When we finished that, the inspector would come out and measure the amount of sand around the pipe and also check to make sure it was compacted and solid. No movement in the pipe is the goal, so when there is some movement, it is at a very minimal amount.

When running water pipe up through a cement slap, I wrap it in pipe insulation. This protects the pipe from rubbing against the cement slab. Over time, this has been a source of leaks in homes. It's happened allot with copper lines too!!!!

Of all the options available in running water lines, Shedule 40 PVC is the only one wiht a proven track record of success. The black poly lines all have failure histories. The only advantage to black poly is that it comes in longer runs and is easier and cheaper to install. All your low end sprinker systems are black poly because of how much cheaper it is to install. They also get to make momey coming out for repairs, so it's a win-win for them. In your home, don't cut any corners on utilites. Put in the best material available, or wait until you can.

As for the other materials, they might work out fine. I'm hearing only good things about PEX, but its' still new technology. There are allot of homes out there that were built with the latest, greatest invention, only to realize later on that it's not what was hoped for. Solar is a great example.

Eddie

 

[Charlesaf3]

I'm starting to put pex in, but am watching it. No issues so far. Crimper is crazy expensive for what it is - never seen one for rent. You can get compression fittings.

SLO - How do you do put a compressor on? Make up a fitting with a quick connect on it. A 75 psi air leak makes a nice whistle, its not too subtle. But I leave it pressurized for a while, with the compressor off. If it loses pressure, there's a leak.

If for some reason its hard to find, do the gas line trick - soapy water brushed on over joints. Bubbles = leak.

 

[SLOBuds]

I'm not up on PEX enough to know all the rules on it yet, but I'd be very cuatious when comparing water lines to gas lines. Water moves pipes around. Preasure increases and decreases cause constant motion in plumbing lines all the time and are a major source of failure. Pipe can only take some much movement until something breaks. Enclosing a water line inside of another line increses the amount of movement that you will get in that water line, whether is side to size flexing, or end to end travel.

Is there a lot of flexing even at 60-80psi? When your in a house that doesn't have the water lines tightly secured, you can hear 'thunks' when valves open and close. Moving pipes. I've never considered those noises to be future failure points.

With my PVC I just dig a hole and toss it in the ground and cover it up. The time I did that 2500' I made a tactical error and failed to mound the dirt over the trench. Well ... that means you have a lot of work to do some time in the future when the dirt finally settles. It is easier to mound and later grade DOWN as opposed to fill level, then later have to fill more.

PEX was adopted in Europe a few decades back. Early failures happened due to issues I don't recall at the moment. From my perspective I think it is now as reliable as copper. Assuming correct installation techniques which MUST be followed. I don't know if it's at the DIY category yet, even though I see companies selling PEX as DIY in places such as Fine Home Building. FHB seems to be a forum of tradespeople and others who want to be or in process of being - anyway SOMEONE out there thinks that a DIY can install PEX.

Taking that a step further, I don't actually consider copper w/soldering as DIY. Maybe after plenty of practice. But definitely skill in a category that is different from driving nails or screwing screws. I've soldered myself and have observed my work being re-done by a professional plumber. Don't want to get into a discussion of how different those 2 work samples looked or performed!

So I'm thinking that you can get a bad copper install and a bad PEX install. It's pretty hard to get a bad PVC install, but still possible if you don't glue the right way. And gluing is such an easy skill that you really have to TRY to not do it right. Almost.

I also do drip all the time. It's been a lifesaver for me during the hot summer months. And it's pretty much in the same category as PVC relative to skills. Maybe you have to learn a little bit more about pressure and flow control. Not too tough. My biggest challenge with drip is with critters who chew on the pipe. Second 'ah-ha' learning was that drip has to be tested all the time. It is definitely not true that drip is plug and play. I walk all of my drip lines every other week during summer months when they are used heavily. And virtually every inspection there are repairs needing to be done. STILL a benefit since my only other option is to water 300 plants by hand.

 

[Charlesaf3]

soldering doesn't strike me as too hard, but I'm nowhere near as fast or as clean looking as my plumber. But hey, if it doesn't leak, and water is going through the pipe...

Pex is easier to my mind, especially if you have the tools. But you still need to solder the stubs etc., pex just helps running the long runs. Not that "just" is appropriate for that - huge timesaver.

I also like the home run aspect of pex.

 

[CurlyDave]

I imagined you running PEX between 2 outbuildings, not direct from the well. Conduit should be just fine, I would imagine. One time I had to run French Drain line under a gravel driveway so I shoved it into a long piece of huge schedule 40. Crack myself up everytime I think about the over-engineering. (And expense!)

In this case, the PEX did not run all the way from the well. The well is about 500 feet from the house. PEX in conduit was only the last 20 feet of that.

I also like the home run aspect of pex.

For cold water, the "home run" might be OK, but how does one plumb a recirc line for hot water in a big house using home runs?

We just ran a big enough PEX line in a big loop around the house and then tied individual fixtures into it with short stubs.

This way you get fast hot water, and can run several fixtures at once without noticing any flow loss.