Does chemical fertilizer cause lawn thatch?

Bob_Skurka · Sep 9, 2004

I found a place in Kentucky that sells it for $27.50 per 50 pound bag 

I figure my front/side yard is about 37,500 square feet, at the recommended rate of 20# per 1000 square feet I would need 15 bags (50 pound bag = 2500 square feet of coverage). Supposedly 2 applications are needed, one in early spring, one in mid-August. So I'd really need 30 bags for the first year and results are supposed to be about 60% effective the first year, up to 90% if applied a second year. At roughly $30/bag, I'm wondering if my child would consider going to a state college instead of the ivy league???

bigpete · Sep 9, 2004

Bob, the reason I cannot go organic is economics--pure and simple. The only reasonably priced thing I can do with my 3-4 acres of good turf is to apply alfalfa to about 2/3 of the area and rotate the area so I get the benefits of the added OM to all areas over a period of a few years. BTW, I love my 110# golden retreiver, too, and purchased a large metal locker for all of my surplus chems. I have kids too and that baby is locked all the time. I pretty much apply what I buy as far as bulk granules, so it would be rare to have any bags around anyway. It's my responsibility to keep the liquids locked up.

Corn gluten is way out of my league and I never did go for the first application. Like you guys, I cannot justify a $900 application of anything.

I have used pre-emergents with pendimethalin with good results in the past. This last year, I used a light fertilizer with Dimension which was very effective. My application was in the third week of March which is early enough to beat the first germination of crabgrass and most warm weather weeds. Each product available out there should have directions as to timing for your region. Tecnically, the timing is based on sustained soil temperatures (day and night) that allow specific seeds to germinate. Any other nearby plant activity that coincides with the increasing soil temperature can be used a a loose guideline, but will not be totally reliable. In my area, the informal timing is to apply pre-emergents beginning with forsythia bloom and must be done by the time the blooms drop. I try to beat that by a couple of weeks each year which is typically in the first three weeks of March (naturally, that's earlier down south, later up north). Some folks put down a second application 6-8 weeks later which extends the pre-emergent effect until late summer.

Your info is coorect: corn gluten has be used as a routine application and the first year may not show a very good result for the money. Also, I learned recently that Iowa State University holds the patent and licenses only a limited list of companies to sell the material as a herbicide. Here's a list:Companies Licensed to Sell Corn Gluten Meal as a herbicide

rdln · Sep 9, 2004

I think so after reading these posts and from my experience with a lady's yard I sodded for her and then mowed for the rest of the year. The next year I stopped mowing lawns and found her a guy to take over, she also hired Barefoot Grass (dont know if they are national) and later that summer she calls to say I put down bad sod! Her lawn was half kentucky blue and half thatch brown and both the mower and fertilizer guys blamed me!
What I saw was a lawn cut too short (scalped in places) and in need of watering. she whined that her water bills were too high - whatever.

I offered to use a power rake on it if she paid for the rental afterall, she helped me make a month's bills the year before.

Cottonhawk · Sep 10, 2004

".....show off my custom front-mount de-thatcher......"
what time of the year and how often do you use the dethatcher on your lawn? Does it work well for you? I am thinking to buy a dethatcher and areator for my garden tractor. I think that dethatch and reseed may help the thatch problem.

Junkman · Sep 10, 2004

I use a mechanical walk behind broom to thatch my lawn and it works well. If you do it on a dry day, it looks like it is snowing. I keep it angled to one side so the thatch windrows off and I keep working it to the edge of the lawn where I pick it up. Doesn't take long and does a great job. It cleans the soil so well that I can then throw some seed to fill in the weak spots.

Bird · Sep 10, 2004

( I use a mechanical walk behind broom )

Do you have a picture of that? I'm having a problem visualizing what you're talking about.

bigpete · Sep 10, 2004

Hi, Cottonhawk. First, I only dethatch and aerate in the fall. There are three reasons. First, I use a pre-emergent each spring and they are only effective as long as you do not disturb the chemical barrier layer that persists in the very top of your topsoil. Second, having a healthy, light layer of thatch keeps in moisture and helps keep the germination of weeds and CG down. Third, the thatch is typically drier and lifts a lot better in the fall.

You are right about de-thatching and seeding. The key to good grass seed germination is seed-to-soil contact. By pulling up the thatch, the seed can get right down in there.

My JD dethatcher allows for guide wheel depth control allowing me to set the times agressively to actually scarify the soil, or less agressive to cruise just above the soil level but deep enough to lift thatch and other materials to the surface for removal or to be mulched into smaller particals for decomposition. My method this fall was to...

1) mow short,
2) core aerate
3) dethatch (less agressive) lift the thatch,
4) mulch the thatch with my mulching mower,
5) set the tines agressively to scarify soil running over areas I wanted to overseed,
6) spread seed,
7) spread light application of fertilizer,
8) and run dethatcher back over areas to incorporate seed into soil (very important).

...The rest is up to Mother Nature /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

If it sounds like a lot of work, it is. I typically have a few areas that need to be overseeded each year becasue I have K31 tall fescue (K31 fescue does not spread as it is not " rhizomatous ," i.e. it does not sprout new plants from roots it sends out like KBG, etc.).

I have had pretty good luck with germination using this technique which is kind of a long way to do the same thing that an overseeder does. I usually spend a day doing my fall lawn chores and like most guys I like sitting on the porch with a cold one when it looks as good as, or better, than the neighbor's. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave___in___CT · Sep 10, 2004

Hi...

Organic fertilizer...

Another possible option is powered seaweed (kelp)...
Mixed with water... applied as a liquid...

A small amount of seaweed powder makes a lotta' liquid...
...so it's pretty cost effective...

I use this on garden and yard plants... flowers.. fruit trees... believe it's useful on almost anything that grows...
it's seems very effective for my uses... but I haven't tried it on a lawn for any extended period...

Don't recall the lowest priced source I found... think it's in PA...

I found the source in the "Wood Prarie Farm" sales catalog from Maine... call 'em and ask...

I'll see if I can get their phone # and update this post...

1-800-829-9765

Just found this infomative short article...
Ecological Lawn Maintenance

Excerpt:
"Commercial services often use liquefied or powered seaweed, fish meal, animal manures, blood meal and compost (Beaubaire, 1992)."
Dave...

Cottonhawk · Sep 11, 2004

Pete, thanks for your clear and detailed reply. This gives me a good idea how to proceed. Since I have just started to shop around for the areator and dethatcher I can add the desirable features to my list. The ajustable setting for the dethatcher sounds good. My garden tractor is a Craftsman (Sears) and they have the tow behind attachments for sale. I imagine that all brands including JD must have the same type of hitch to attach to the garden tractors.
Any other suggestions will be appreciated. We enjoy our gardens and can always use help and better methods to improve our lawn and garden.