Dog Training Question....

[MoKelly]

That's why it drives some of us crazy to see them abused.

100%.

When my dog died a few months ago I was hurt. It was hard. Haven’t yet got the courage to get a new dog.

My cat is wonderful. I love him. He is sweet and friendly. Loves people. Loves being in your lap. Loves being petted.

But - it’s not the same. Cats don’t run to greet you when you get home. Cats don’t prance up and down in joy when you get the leash to go outside. Cats don’t fetch anything. Cats aren’t outwardly loyal. You can’t take cats for a walk. Cats don’t follow you on a 4 wheeler.

The old saying is correct - dogs have owners, cats have staff.

MoKelly

 

[Dftodd]

If you know the dog is getting ready for a fight, a shock collar may work before the fight starts. If the dog is in a "full fledge fight", a shock collar may do nothing but enhance the fight instinct in the dog and will accomplish nothing but to motivate the dog to fight more. Something to be aware of. I've seen this from first hand experience.

Our trainer mentioned on incident when he first started using a shock collar for training purposes.

They train personal protection dogs and were working on calling off an attack.

His partner was in the bite suit and he sent the dog in. Called the dog off and hit the button to shock it.

Dog finished off the attack. His partner said that the dog actually increased the intensity of the attack. Said he thought he got hit by a truck.

 

[Dftodd]

My wife was reading an article where dogs have been trained to detect covid with a high degree of accuracy.

There was a kid in my daughters class that had a service dog. Kid was a sever diabetic. The dog would let him know when his sugars were off.

They have been experimenting with dogs detecting cancer as well.

The nose knows

 

[drssg]

If I may add an aside to your excellent post...
Something like this will help.HERM SPRENGER Ultra-Plus Training Dog Prong Collar, 14-in neck, 2.25-mm wide - Chewy.com

My last dog was a puller... this was the only thing which worked. Far from being cruel the way that some people told me, she would get excited when I put it on her because she knew that it meant we were going out in public and she loved people.

Yes, that's the collar I was thinking of. I've never used one, but it seems like a good idea for a chronic puller.

Back when I was using the zap collar, our dogs would also get excited about having that collar put on. To them, it means they are about to go for a good run in the open field.

 

[Sigarms]

Thanks! That sounds smart (I should have thought about that). I知 going to get a training collar.

MoKelly

My FIL passed away a little while ago. His two dogs came to stay with us because my MIL couldn't handle them by herself with her grief on how he died. We adpoted these same dogs out about 10 years ago when we fostered to my in laws, so we know these dogs pretty well (I think Roy up in Vermont even met them when I transported them down to NC from Vermont).

Generally, you don't want to leave them off lead unattended or they could run off on you. After the first week, took the one collar off on my smaller dog and put it on my FIL's dog. Within two days, that dog knows when she wears that collar that when I call for her, she needs to come to the house. Point being they do work pretty well (same MO with her, vibrate then shock). After one "yelp" because she wouldn't listen to me, the negative behavior was resolved.

When we fostered dogs, we got in over our heads with the sheer quantity. Those training collars really did come in handy, and if that makes me lazy, at least I found those dogs good homes instead of having the county put them down. Kind of feel guilty for using them because I never would want to cause a dog in my care any pain.

 

[drssg]

First...thanks to everyone for your thoughts & comments.





I personally agree with this logic (not knowing if I'm right or wrong) My wife however, is a genteel softie who wants to save the world. (one of her nicer aspects) What she never seems to realize though is sometimes you need to punch a bully in the nose.

I don't recall the specifics, but I was in our foyer once (earlier on) playing with Rufas, rubbing his belly, pulling his rope... I don't recall how it came about but, he nipped at my face. I don't think he was actually trying to bite me but he did nip towards me.

Out of pure reflex, I swiped at him to block it and (with open hand) essentially slapped him upside the face. It was a very interesting look on his face.... he just stopped and had a bit of a puzzled look on his face as he looked at me wondering "MAN, what are you DOING??" He immediately "toned" that down a bit and we played on without that happening.

Of course, "I" was the bad guy for "hitting" him, never mind that it was simply a reaction by me to his jumping towards my face.....I'm the bad guy, abusing him.

It sounds like your wife is the one that needs training. If you find someone to assist, perhaps she would be more open-minded to third-party feedback.

In the meantime, I would suggest being quite cautious with him around other people. Much of the world will jump at the chance for a lawsuit. It comes down to the question, "Would a reasonable person have foreseen the likelihood of this dog bite? If so, would a reasonable person have taken additional precautions to prevent it?"

Some friends of ours had a huge Great Dane. He was a friendly, goofy, Marmaduke-type dog, and I never saw him act aggressive to anyone. Nobody saw what happened, but he bit a woman that worked in their barn, and gave her a small cut to the face. I suspect the dog was asleep on his bed, and she bent down to say good-bye with her face next to his, and she startled the dog. She was "kind" enough to settle out of court, but they had to put the dog down. The owner's lawyer advised them that, if the dog bit anyone else, they could easily lose everything.

 

[Jstpssng]

There was a kid in my daughters class that had a service dog. Kid was a sever diabetic. The dog would let him know when his sugars were off.

They have been experimenting with dogs detecting cancer as well.

The nose knows

I've seen them used for detecting when a kid was going to have an epileptic seizure, and get him down to a safe place. My current dog originally came from someone who breeds dogs for therapy training. They can tell by 6 weeks whether the dog will work out... Ruger didn't make the grade.

 

[Dftodd]

I've seen them used for detecting when a kid was going to have an epileptic seizure, and get him down to a safe place. My current dog originally came from a breeder who breeds dogs for therapy training. They can tell by 6 weeks whether the dog will work out... Ruger didn't make the grade.

They can tell similar with personal protection dogs from what our trainer said.

Our trainer imports German Shepherds as was training them for personal protection. The issue was some of the pups in the litter weren't really suited for it because of their disposition. They were lovers not fighters

He went back and got his certification for service animals as well. Specifically for the needs of vets who really just need a therapy dog with a disposition like our shepherd. But able to go everywhere with them.

This way he can train the dogs for their disposition, and not have to sell some of the shepherds for just pets after spending the money to get them here from Finland.

 

[Alien]

There is a 10 year old thread on this subject, Can't link it on this tablet. In fact there are about 5 threads.

 

[Richard]

Bit of an update:

Went to town yesterday. Bought one of those pincher/training collars. Came home, fitted it to him and while putting it on him, just tugged a bit on it to make sure it seemed to fit ok but also let him know it was there.

Now.... is this the fruits of my prior working with him or is it because of the new collar??? When I went out with him he was (almost literally) at my side. If he wanted to walk ahead, I could just flick my wrist to "jostle" the collar and he came right back. I'm wondering if he's been exposed to one of these before because again, either what I've been doing has finally come clear to him OR, this collar is an immediate help.

As we were walking and I was mesmerized with how well behaved he was, I kind of laughed at myself thinking "Nah.... there's really no test until we go outside and get confronted with deer" (at which point he goes ballistic wanting to chase them).

As luck would have it, as we topped the hill.....there were about 5 deer a couple hundred feet ahead of us grazing. You could see him get excited but again, I twitched (didn't pull so the amount of NON-pressure this took was amazing) anyway, he came back and sat down. Now, he was whining and doing his short chirpy barking but NORMALLY He's reared on his hind legs letting the pressure of the leash on his neck hold him back as he's leaning forward at a 45 degree angle trying to pull me to them. It was quite the difference.


Later, went on walk with sister in law with her three dogs, one being a male that Rufas once attacked. Rufas was on leash the entire time and they got to run around (we're trying to show him how normal dogs might act) He stayed by my side the entire time, never lunged at her male dog, never barked at him....actually, showed near indifference to him/them as we traipsed through the woods.

I've seen Rufas hide his thoughts though....and (before) act nice, then if he gets off the leash he's off like a rocket to attack his target. So I was suspicious of him this entire time however from the first step out of the house until we returned, he was under composure.

Even sister in law was making comment that she can't believe how well behaved he was. Now, I want my wife to walk him with the new collar so she can see how to maybe control him but to also let him know that she's the Queen Bee who must be obeyed. He's strong enough to pull me over IF he catches me off guard (or wraps leash around legs and then bolts in other direction) but I'm usually watching out for that. He can pull her over much easier. I don't think she walks him with the apprehension (I really want to say focus/attention to his shennannigans) that I do.

Right now I'm putting this training collar up there with one of the best 'dog purchases' I've ever made.

 

[Richard]

There is a 10 year old thread on this subject, Can't link it on this tablet. In fact there are about 5 threads.

They should have all waited until the best thread got started.... :drink:

 

[aczlan]

I’ve never experienced it, but I do believe some dogs have a sense that can tell if a human is good or not so good. I also believe dogs can sense human pain.

They can be quite amazing creatures and the best pet you could ever wish.

MoKelly

We have a Golden Retriever that it seems can tell if someone is having a bad day, is sad, angry, depressed, etc. She will go sit down next to them and nudge them with her nose until they start petting her.

Aaron Z

 

[Sigarms]

Bit of an update:

Went to town yesterday. Bought one of those pincher/training collars. Came home, fitted it to him and while putting it on him, just tugged a bit on it to make sure it seemed to fit ok but also let him know it was there.

Now.... is this the fruits of my prior working with him or is it because of the new collar??? When I went out with him he was (almost literally) at my side. If he wanted to walk ahead, I could just flick my wrist to "jostle" the collar and he came right back. I'm wondering if he's been exposed to one of these before because again, either what I've been doing has finally come clear to him OR, this collar is an immediate help.

As we were walking and I was mesmerized with how well behaved he was, I kind of laughed at myself thinking "Nah.... there's really no test until we go outside and get confronted with deer" (at which point he goes ballistic wanting to chase them).

As luck would have it, as we topped the hill.....there were about 5 deer a couple hundred feet ahead of us grazing. You could see him get excited but again, I twitched (didn't pull so the amount of NON-pressure this took was amazing) anyway, he came back and sat down. Now, he was whining and doing his short chirpy barking but NORMALLY He's reared on his hind legs letting the pressure of the leash on his neck hold him back as he's leaning forward at a 45 degree angle trying to pull me to them. It was quite the difference.


Later, went on walk with sister in law with her three dogs, one being a male that Rufas once attacked. Rufas was on leash the entire time and they got to run around (we're trying to show him how normal dogs might act) He stayed by my side the entire time, never lunged at her male dog, never barked at him....actually, showed near indifference to him/them as we traipsed through the woods.

I've seen Rufas hide his thoughts though....and (before) act nice, then if he gets off the leash he's off like a rocket to attack his target. So I was suspicious of him this entire time however from the first step out of the house until we returned, he was under composure.

Even sister in law was making comment that she can't believe how well behaved he was. Now, I want my wife to walk him with the new collar so she can see how to maybe control him but to also let him know that she's the Queen Bee who must be obeyed. He's strong enough to pull me over IF he catches me off guard (or wraps leash around legs and then bolts in other direction) but I'm usually watching out for that. He can pull her over much easier. I don't think she walks him with the apprehension (I really want to say focus/attention to his shennannigans) that I do.

Right now I'm putting this training collar up there with one of the best 'dog purchases' I've ever made.

:thumbsup:

You've taken the time, seen the issues, and tried to analyze those issues to help the situation with the dog in your care. Rufus by either sheer luck of the draw, or by God's will, found you to help his life get better as a lot of people wouldn't take their time IMO.

I might of missed it, but is your intention to find Rufus a new "forever home" or are you going to keep him?

 

[Dftodd]

We have a Golden Retriever that it seems can tell if someone is having a bad day, is sad, angry, depressed, etc. She will go sit down next to them and nudge them with her nose until they start petting her.

Aaron Z

Similar with our shepherd. But we have had a couple other dogs that would do the same.

We have had a couple dogs now that will cuddle up and tuck their head into your neck when you are having trouble sleeping or in a rough mood.

Our shepherd will do this, but she will also lay her paw across you and hold you as well.

This will put the person out cold within a couple minutes She's done it at one time or other to me, my wife, and both grandkids with the same results

 

[dmccarty]

..
I'm told he's a border collie. He's got a bobbed tail (if that means anything) He is fast as the wind, very VERY strong (about 35/40 pounds) and you can just SEE his intelligence.... he really is an intelligent dog once you start working with him....

Good Gracious! Rufus looks like he came from the same litter as our rescue! That is almost a spitting image of him. Does he have a white tip on his tail. We call it his paint brush. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Our dog has a bunch of names but I call him Dumb a....(DA) He is wicked smart but he can't stop himself from doing stupid stuff. He was a rescue and was in a home with a dozen other dogs. :shocked: He had some pretty bad behaviors but most of them we have resolved.

We did get a shock collar, I don't like it at all, but it has helped. DA is about 50 pounds after my wife got him on a proper diet. He had to be dewormed twice, his fur was awful and he was so thin you could see his ribs. She got him back in shape real quick. :thumbsup: One of the problem's is DA's bark. He is only 50 pounds but he has a bark of a 200 pound dog. This would be beautiful if he was a mile away but it is flat out painful when he is 10 feet away, in the house, and a delivery truck pulls up. It is not that he barks once, but million times.

He barks. He barks a LOT! Too much. It really is a problem. Having said that, the shock collar has minimized the barking. I think his barking is party because he is, or has, lots of Border Collie DNA, and the fact he was raised with a dozen other dogs.

We started rewatching the All Creatures Great and Small series months ago and one of the first episodes has a Border Collie that looks like DA.

DA is a high energy dog and amazingly agile. Amazing what he can do. He is easy to train for the most part. Smart when he wants to be and when he can control is DA gene(s).

The BEST books I have read about dog training are by the Monks of Skete:

• https://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-...=monks+of+skete&qid=1613412014&s=books&sr=1-2
• https://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Dog...=monks+of+skete&qid=1613412091&s=books&sr=1-4
• https://www.amazon.com/Let-Dogs-Be-...=monks+of+skete&qid=1613412196&s=books&sr=1-6

Looks like they have a new one that we will have to get:
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Training...=monks+of+skete&qid=1613412146&s=books&sr=1-5

Their books talk about dog psychology which really helps understand the dog and get them trained. I have used the grab the dog by the back of the neck technique and it works.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

I致e never experienced it, but I do believe some dogs have a sense that can tell if a human is good or not so good. I also believe dogs can sense human pain.

They can be quite amazing creatures and the best pet you could ever wish.

MoKelly

My GSD was a genius. She was beyond special...

I think dogs, at least some of them, can not only tell if a person is good or bad but they can sense pain in people, as well as other animals, but also a host of other things. I know my GSD knew when my wife was pregnant with our kids. Not only could the dog HEAR the other heart beak, I think the dog could small the difference. One of our nicknames for the GSD was The Nose. The GSD would push her nose into you and SMELL. She was obviously smelling to see where you had been, with whom, and who knows what else. The dog use to do that on my wife's belly when she was pregnant. The dog knew the baby before we did...

We had a Golden at the same time as we had the GSD and they were good buddies. The Golden got cancer. Long story short, the vets gave the Golden a short time to live but the wifey kept that dog going 2-3 times longer than the vets had guessed. The GSD would "check" on the Golden multiple times a day with her nose. The GSD would nose the Golden and I know she could smell the cancer as it spread through the Golden's body.

As it was getting close to the the end for the Golden, we put her dog bed in a corner where she could see what was happening in the house but it was out of the way and quiet. Eventually, it was time to put the Golden down. We called the vet and they made house calls to give the shot. This was mostly easier on us but much easier on the dog.

The vet showed up with an assistant. The Golden was laying in her bed which was wedged in behind a couch and wall. There was a narrow path about 3-4 feet wide to get to the dog. The GSD KNEW why the vet was at the house. The GSD put her body across the 3-4 foot space to prevent the vet from getting to the Golden. The GSD would NOT let the vet or her assistant get to the Golden. There was no growling, snarling, barking or bad behavior. The GSD just threw her body in front of the vet to prevent the vet from getting to her sick buddy. Total body block it was. I had to grab the GSD and hold her so the vet could do what needed to be done. The GSD did not struggle or fight but just kinda stood there.

The vet gave the Golden a shot, and as her heart stopped beating, the GSD started to howl...

The GSD was something special...

Later,
Dan

 

[Richard]

:thumbsup:I might of missed it, but is your intention to find Rufus a new "forever home" or are you going to keep him?

I think we'd both be happy if we could find him a new forever home. Issue there is probably nobody less than the Pope himself to be worthy...(she's very particular)

We had a stray dog a number of years ago....long story short... bloody mouth. Got to vet. He had been shot in the face and the bullet lodged itself just shy of his spine. Went through his lower teeth. Don't know what kind of dog but he was some form of hunting dog that evidently liked to be your partner more than chasing whatever it normally chased....so (I'm told) the owner probably shot him since he wasn't a good hunting dog.

Spent $1,500 on vet bills, surgery and a couple weeks of feeding him by tube to get him healthy. Took him out on leash at night and he always seemed to naturally stay beside me. Finally one evening (dark out) took him out and decided to leave him off the leash.

Deer rustled in the woods and he took off after them. They were gone.... he followed. I didn't try to chase him, they were too far by now. I called his name and heard more rustling in the woods....then more rustling.... turned flashlight over to a new direction and he was now in the field just racing towards me.... one of those "used me as his backstop" because he was running so fast. It was then that I knew he'd obey me and I never had to have him on a leash again.

Found a family for him. Folks had a special needs child and were looking for a companion for the child but, the companion dog had to get along with their other dog and other child. Looked like a perfect marriage to me, they took him.... but the wife always regretted letting him go. (thinking we'd be better home for him).

So I'd be 100% fine if we found a home for him. She'd probably be 60/40 knowing that he causes commotion here with our two (elderly) dogs and oh....he LOVES to chase cats..... we've got an elderly cat who pretty much stays in the (finished) basement with a window door.... Rufas would love to go cat chasing. So another home that could work him harder than we can would probably be a good move for him.

 

[Richard]

Regarding dogs sensing others.... decades ago when I lived in Indianapolis, I was at a friends house for the first time. He had a Chow. He warned me that the Chow was very protective....knew his boundaries (would stay in the yard) BUT, I was in his turf.... just stand like a statue while the dog sniffs your hand.... don't make any sudden moves, he might snap at you.... oh, and by the way, would you like something to drink??

Sure... so he leaves and goes into kitchen to get a glass of water or coke or something.

Comes back out of the kitchen, his "vicious" Chow was on his back and Mr. Stranger (me) was rubbing his belly. Chris just stopped in his tracks and said he would not have believed it had he not seen it for himself. Said his dog has never done that before, with anyone.

I just shrugged my shoulders and took a sip with my new buddy on his back looking up at me.

 

[Alien]

That reminds me of an event that happened to me many years ago when I worked as a mechanic. I repaired a ladys' car and then delivered it to her house. As I walked up the pathway her dog came flying out to meet me with her hot on its' heels panicking. I bent down and gave the dog a hug and pat. She was astonished. She said nobody had ever been able to do that before. Maybe the dog knew I was bringing her car back. She was a single mum so the dog was very protective.

Richard, great news. As you say, the dog may have known what the collar was. Glad it was a success.

 

[Alien]

It has been a few years now since we lost Vinnie our Mareema. They are very special dogs and you have to watch them closely when visitors come until the dog relaxes. They are hugely protective and everything on your property is owned by them. My flying buddy often came to visit and I always said, do not reach out to him or try to touch him. VInnie always sniffed him and then went and lay down close by. One day Hank decided to pat Vinnie on the head. I had just reminded him not to.
Well. Vinnie flew at him and bit his face and split his nose. I felt so bad but Hank said, "well you told me often enough". He didn't blame me or Vinnie but himself.
It's about 6 years now and Hank still has a rather obvious scar on his nose. We are still good friends.