Doolittle Raiders

[Daver1963]

Did you know the P51 was designed by a German who worked for Messerschmitt. HS

According to this bio of Edgar Schmued on Wikipedia that is an urban legend.

An urban legend has grown up about Edgar Schmued, possibly related to his German origins, claiming he had once worked for Willy Messerschmitt and that the Mustang was heavily influenced by the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Neither claim is true but the urban legend persists.[4] Just as familiar is the notion that the abortive Curtiss XP-46 was the basis of the P-51 design.

 

[Daver1963]

The Memphis Belle is the B17 we saw a summer back.

Can you imagine climbing into that ball turret and hoping that it will not get damaged which would prevent the turret from aligning just right so you could climb back out?

When we were on the B17 it was just after sunrise and it was already hot and humid. It was miserable being in the plane aka oven. I would think in England it would not have been so bad but in the Pacific it most have been really bad. Course, I don't know how the laundry and engine crews worked in ships in the South Pacific...

Later,
Dan

I spent 4 summers (1989-92) in England. They ranged from mild to hot. Sometimes within the same week it could go from blustery cold to hot. I would think that even in mild temperatures with all the gear they had to wear to survive at altitude that on the ground it could be unbearable. I think I've read where the ball turret gunners didn't get into them until they had to. Why be in there with all the risk entailed on take-off or landing?
However, there were multiple cases of the ball turrets being stuck combined with landing gear that wouldn't come down.

 

[houstonscott]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued

It is true. Always was.

HS

 

[aczlan]

Edgar Schmued - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is true. Always was.

Ummm, did you read the page you linked to?

An urban legend has grown up about Edgar Schmued, possibly related to his German origins, claiming he had once worked for Willy Messerschmitt and that the Mustang was heavily influenced by the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Neither claim is true but the urban legend persists.

Aaron Z

 

[bcp]

Not many remember that the Mustang has a British origin.
North American P-51 Mustang

"The Mustang was conceived, designed and built by North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a specification issued directly to NAA by the British Purchasing Commission. The prototype NA-73X airframe was rolled out on 9 September 1940, 102 days after the contract was signed and, with an engine installed, first flew on 26 October.

The Mustang was originally designed to use the Allison V-1710 engine, which had limited high-altitude performance. It was first flown operationally by the Royal Air Force (RAF) as a tactical-reconnaissance aircraft and fighter-bomber (Mustang Mk I)."



Or that there was a dive bomber version called the Apache.
North American A-36 Apache

"The North American A-36 Apache (listed in some sources as "Invader", but also called Mustang) was the ground-attack/dive bomber version of the North American P-51 Mustang, from which it could be distinguished by the presence of rectangular, slatted dive brakes above and below the wings. A total of 500 A-36 dive bombers served..."



Or that there was a twin engine version.
North American F-82 Twin Mustang

"The North American F-82 Twin Mustang was the last American piston-engine fighter ordered into production by the United States Air Force. Based on the P-51 Mustang..."



Or that Piper developed a turboprop version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer

"It was the ultimate development of the original World War II North American P-51 Mustang."

Bruce

 

[turnkey4099]

Not many remember that the Mustang has a British origin.
North American P-51 Mustang

"The Mustang was conceived, designed and built by North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a specification issued directly to NAA by the British Purchasing Commission. The prototype NA-73X airframe was rolled out on 9 September 1940, 102 days after the contract was signed and, with an engine installed, first flew on 26 October.

The Mustang was originally designed to use the Allison V-1710 engine, which had limited high-altitude performance. It was first flown operationally by the Royal Air Force (RAF) as a tactical-reconnaissance aircraft and fighter-bomber (Mustang Mk I)."



Or that there was a dive bomber version called the Apache.
North American A-36 Apache

"The North American A-36 Apache (listed in some sources as "Invader", but also called Mustang) was the ground-attack/dive bomber version of the North American P-51 Mustang, from which it could be distinguished by the presence of rectangular, slatted dive brakes above and below the wings. A total of 500 A-36 dive bombers served..."



Or that there was a twin engine version.
North American F-82 Twin Mustang

"The North American F-82 Twin Mustang was the last American piston-engine fighter ordered into production by the United States Air Force. Based on the P-51 Mustang..."



Or that Piper developed a turboprop version.
Piper PA-48 Enforcer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It was the ultimate development of the original World War II North American P-51 Mustang."

Bruce

I'm surprised that no one mentioned that the original had a "camel back" (I think that was the term) until that was replaced with bubble canopy. That changed it from a "run of the mill" fighter into what I consider to be the most beautiful fighter plane of the war.

My vote for the ugliest bomber"? The Lancaster. No style at all.

The British were "not impressed" with the first batch of them due to the engine. the engine change made the difference.

Harry K
Harry K

 

[dmccarty]

I spent 4 summers (1989-92) in England. They ranged from mild to hot. Sometimes within the same week it could go from blustery cold to hot. I would think that even in mild temperatures with all the gear they had to wear to survive at altitude that on the ground it could be unbearable. I think I've read where the ball turret gunners didn't get into them until they had to. Why be in there with all the risk entailed on take-off or landing?
However, there were multiple cases of the ball turrets being stuck combined with landing gear that wouldn't come down.

Yes, I don't think the gunners did not get into the ball until they had too. I don't think anyone could have stayed locked into that one position for very long. I have read of the ball gunners who could not get out of the turret and the plane had to land on its belly. Not a good way to go having hours to ponder being crushed to death.

While England can get hot it is for a short time period unlike the Pacific and GA. I mention GA because the Eighth Air Force was formed in Savannah before heading to the UK. The day I was on the B17, I was wearing shorts and a cotton shirt, but it was so hot and humid I was drenched in sweat just walking around inside the aircraft. Those guys had to be miserable in their wool and leather flying suits. They cooked on the ground and froze in the air... The metal skin is just a wee bit thicker than aluminum foil which does not bode well for stopping flak, rockets, machine gun and cannon fire.

Having said that the B17 could really take a beating. Read about the most decorated flight crew in WWII in their B17 number 666, Wings of Valor II- Jay Zeamer and Joseph Sarnoski. A shorter write up is on Wikipedia, Old 666 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I have always read history and used to read fiction but I gave up on fiction for the most part because reality is stranger than fiction. History is full of impossible events. If I wrote a fictional account about a pilot nobody wanted to fly with, who gathered a Black Sheep crew together, who then made an unflyable aircraft fly even though it was number 666, and that this plane and crew went on to do great things, who would believe the story?

If anyone is traveling on I95 through Savannah, the 8th Air Force museum is worth a stop or two. We have been twice and we still have some displays and movies I would like to see.

Later,
Dan

 

[zzvyb6]

4 surviving WWII Doolittle Raiders make final toast | Deseret News

 

[RobertN]

Have had interesting trips to USS Hornet CV-12, and saw the presentations on the Doolittle Raids from USS-Hornet CV-8. Was interesting talking to WWII vets who flew from USS-Hornet CV-12, Phil Sea, and Boxer. CV-12 is bigger than CV-8 was(even before CV-12's angle deck conversion). They flew F4U-1 bentwing Corsair(my favorite plane) in WWII and Korea, and later Cougar/Panther jets in Korea. They said it must have been something to launch the larger bombers from CV-8's straight deck.

I have always like the Mustang's. But if I had to be in a plane in that era, I think I would prefer the Corsair. By the end of the war it was as fast, and could take a lot more punishment. It was also more versatile, from fighter to attack. Production of Mustang, P38 etc ended as soon as WWII ended. F4U1 production continued thru the end of Korean War. It turned out to be the most versatile and hard hitting of the WWII fighters. Also took out a few Mig's. Interestingly, the last known combat with Corsairs or Mustangs was Mustang VS Corsair in "Football" war in Honduras, with Corsair shooting down Mustang.

 

[DieselnHooters]

4 surviving WWII Doolittle Raiders make final toast | Deseret News

Doolittle raiders...outstanding dignified representatives of the greatest generation

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