Dpf, regen cycles, fuel additives....

rademamj1 · Jan 2, 2021

rScotty said:
I've been wanting to ask this, and apologize if it sounds simplistic. But if that is all regeneration does, where's the advantage? Is oily soot less of a hazard than ash? I'd have thought the hazard would be greater when putting dry, finely-powdered ash into the air more than just dealing with the oily soot.

rScotty

Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

buck12 · Jan 2, 2021

rademamj1 said:
Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

I wonder if the plastic industry may have contributed a dollar or two to that legislation.

spruce Deere · Jan 2, 2021

Same fate of all the empty def fluid containers....

Blue Mule · Jan 29, 2021

rademamj1 said:
Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

Not to mention the additional fuel consumed by Tier IV engines, which is bad for the environment. Or the additional precious metals and materials used to construct the hardware, which affects the environment. Or the added cost passed on to the farmer for future repairs, which affects his bottom line and may or may not get passed along to the end user. We could go on forever.

If you really wanted to get down in the weeds, you could even look at the additional heat generated by machines using regeneration strategies and the effect that the collection of those devices all over the world has on tropospheric heat content. It's sort of like the "butterfly effect" that my meteorology professors talked about a lot in college. Everything we do has an effect on the world around us.

But, the only thing the EPA sees is politics and so rational decision making goes right out the door. And we, the end user, end up suffering for it.

It's a shame because I just bought a new compact tractor and I bought less horsepower than I really wanted or needed just to avoid emissions equipment. If it weren't for DPF/EGR I would have gone 35-40 horsepower without even thinking about it and the tractor would have worked for my needs much better. Sigh...

Slowpoke Slim · Jan 30, 2021

Or you could just buy one that can have the filter taken off (or "falls off" accidentally) with no computer gizmos to worry about, and be happy...

:mischievous:

fried1765 · Jan 30, 2021

Slowpoke Slim said:
Or you could just buy one that can have the filter taken off (or "falls off" accidentally) with no computer gizmos to worry about, and be happy...

:mischievous:

Though I have absolutely no plans to ever buy another tractor, you have very clearly identified why I would be looking at Branson first!

RSR · Jan 30, 2021

rScotty said:
I've been wanting to ask this, and apologize if it sounds simplistic. But if that is all regeneration does, where's the advantage? Is oily soot less of a hazard than ash? I'd have thought the hazard would be greater when putting dry, finely-powdered ash into the air more than just dealing with the oily soot.

rScotty

It's a little more complicated than that. The idea behind the filter and regeneration is not to just turn oily soot into ash. It's actually an oxidation process. That is, when burned hot enough, a chemical process takes place where by the carbon byproduct of the combustion combines with Oxygen to from CO2. (Carbon dioxide). So, you are converting solid particle to a gas.

The problem is that this process takes some time to occur. As temperature increases, this oxidation occurs quicker. So during normal combustion the exhaust temperature is not sufficiently high for the carbon to be oxidized into CO2 before it exits nto the atmosphere.

The idea behind a carbon filter is trap the carbon before it enters the atmosphere. Then, during regen the temp goes MUCH higher allowing oxidation of the trapped carbon to occur.

Because oxidation rate increases significantly with temperature, this is why running your engine at high RPM/Temps is advantageous. The oxidation of carbon is much more likely to occur before it reaches the filter, and starts plugging it.

I think there are also other chemical benefits to it with regards to some of the other chemical byproducts of diesel combustion (e.g., NOX) but I'm not sure on that.

spruce Deere · Jan 31, 2021

Blue Mule said:
Not to mention the additional fuel consumed by Tier IV engines, which is bad for the environment. Or the additional precious metals and materials used to construct the hardware, which affects the environment. Or the added cost passed on to the farmer for future repairs, which affects his bottom line and may or may not get passed along to the end user. We could go on forever.

If you really wanted to get down in the weeds, you could even look at the additional heat generated by machines using regeneration strategies and the effect that the collection of those devices all over the world has on tropospheric heat content. It's sort of like the "butterfly effect" that my meteorology professors talked about a lot in college. Everything we do has an effect on the world around us.

But, the only thing the EPA sees is politics and so rational decision making goes right out the door. And we, the end user, end up suffering for it.

It's a shame because I just bought a new compact tractor and I bought less horsepower than I really wanted or needed just to avoid emissions equipment. If it weren't for DPF/EGR I would have gone 35-40 horsepower without even thinking about it and the tractor would have worked for my needs much better. Sigh...

Well said blue. Its all in 'where do you want the pollution spectrum'...Fuel consumption? procurement of raw materials? EPA and All the political energy applied? To me, it is all a pointless battle. I believe the EPA 95% of the time is just making sure they still have a job, with political power.

Look up the pollution created by the complete manufacturing process of the future battery powered vehicles, or battery powered anything with wheels....

Far as I am concerned, its all the major cities of the globe that are the major polluters, not the on and off road equipment operation, regardless of hp rating.