Drain Field Dilemma

[Windknot]

Hello All,

As you can see this is my first post....I recently discovered this great site after searching out information about my brush hog....I'll be posting those questions shortly.

I do have a more pressing problem that I'd like to post to the members.

Fair Wife and I purchased 13 acres of farm land several years ago and our dream home was completed last year on the lot.

The lot is 1500' deep and 427' wide (approximately). Our home sits back from the front about 750 feet.

The back 5 acres of the property is thick mature hardwoods. We are surrounded on all sides by tilled/farmed lands.

The fields were tiled years and years ago (clay tiles hand laid) and no one really knows where they all are....I do know however that many of them drain into our property and then into the ditch in front of our property.

During the course of excavation for the home and for the utilities (water and gas) the excavator cut several of the tiles, never said anything to anyone and then just left them cut and reburied the utilities.

This has left large portions of our front yard and property in periods of heavy rains (and particularly in springtime) dangerously wet.

Unfortunately, it has also left large areas of the farm field to our north unusable as the mud is so deep that the largest tractors sink in and get stuck.

After a great deal of arguing, and threats, we were able to get our contractor to bring in someone to fix one of the cut tiles, but they deny cutting any others (we know that there were many additional ones cut.)

Herein the problem lies. We want to be good neighbors, we are willing to pay someone to come in and fix the remainder of the cut tiles and also place additional tiles around the property to aid in the draining of our yard. But NO ONE is willing to take on such a "small" job. There are only two drain tile installers within approximately 60 miles (no one else will even return our calls) and neither of them will even consider doing our job.

My question (FINALLY!!!!) is.....how difficult would it be for me to rent a small tracked excavator, dig a couple of trenches down the sides of the property, lay the tile myself and hook into the old clay tiles? Is there product out there that can make a connection between the old clay and the new modern black plastic drain?

I guess the crux of my dilemma is this....I can rent a little excavator for 60-100 bucks a day, the tile is not that expensive, but how bad can I screw this up if I try and do this myself?

Thanks for the great resources,

Windknot aka Sean

 

[neilly2]

You have the hard part finished -- you know what you want drained, where you want it drained and you even have the old lines as your starting point.

Excavators are very intuitive to learn, if you've never used one. Practice a few minutes and you'll be able to dig a trench. Have a second person in the trench make sure you're digging to the proper elevation. A rotating laser is best for this, or a 4' level would get you by. Mark out you cut line on the grass before you dig. Then as you back up digging you stay on a straight line.

I think its a pretty straightforward job. Just don't hit any other utility while you're digging this one.

 

[Windknot]

Geeze....

I never considered the level issue.......

If I'm going to be going in a straight line approximately 800 feet, how do I figure out how much drop I need.

Do I start at the bottom of the ditch? I'm starting to think I need someone with a little surveying experience to help me.....add THAT to the cost.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[neilly2]

Don't call the surveyor yet.

To start out, I'm not familiar with the clay tiles you speak of. I know of old clay pipe. Is it perforated? (holes or slits in it so water can flow into it) Or is solid pipe that drains a field inlet (grate)? This answer will tell us wether the pipe needs to be pitched or not. Either way, you're still in business without a surveyor.

 

[SCB]

Windknot,
When tying in perforated pipe to tiles, just butt up the new pipe to the tile and cover the conection with tarpaper or a piece of roofing material. I just had to do the same thing with my septic feild to satisfy the county agent. I had to run a tightline connection to the existing tiles. The tiles are usually just butted together with a top cover of half tile keeping the soil out.

 

[scout180]

Check with your county surveyor's office. They should have ditch maps if the old tile lines were laid as part of a government funded or assisted project. Each owner of the watershed would have likely been assessed for their % contibution of water to the whole project. Improvements to such projects may also be eligible for assessement. It's a lot of paperwork but can benefit all.

 

[Currmudgeon]

You may have some law on your side. In Illinois, it is illegal to cut farm tiles without fixing them. Your state may have the same. Since the farmers upstream are still under water, it seems clear that there are still some broken tiles. I imagine they’re mad as hell! The easiest place to find them is to look where the utility contractors dug. Have your lawyer contact them and, if you need to fix the tiles yourself, back-bill the utilities and their contractors. You may get a tractor payment or two out of this, and your lawyer will get a boat payment. Your county public works or engineer’s office may have a big stick to beat the utility contractors with. If the breaks are in the County right-of-way, the County may have to fix them themselves.

There are firms who locate drain tiles. Call a local engineering firm that does land development work, or a surveyor. They should know who does that in your area. The County or local land surveying firms may already have tile maps, but none of them can be trusted 100%.

You should be able to locate the discharge points into the roadside ditch. Check each of those lines for breaks. Sometimes it helps to put smoke bombs in the end of the pipe, seal the end with a sandbag, and follow the smoke trails in the lawn. Don’t lay a smoke screen across the road. Don’t ask me why I stress that point. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
http://www.superiorsignal.com/

You may be able to locate the paths of the tile lines yourself, from aerial photos. There may be a firm in your county who does aerial photos and has a library of them. You can also get historic, some quite recent, US aerials through the internet. Tile lines often show up as lighter or darker lines on the pix. In the end, you explore by digging trenches.

Typically, the old tile lines were made of clay drain tile. These are short, about 18 inch, lengths of clay pipe with no bell end, simply laid end to end with a small gap between the tiles. They weren’t perforated. So for a small fix, all you need is comparable sized PVC or corrugated steel pipe and a bucket of concrete. The easiest way is to use a larger pipe, slip it on over both tile ends, and slop some concrete into the joint. It’s kinda hard to do it wrong, as you have both ends to tie to, and the stuff’s not a precision product.

If you want to intercept the tiles at your property line and bring them out to the ditch, you have a real project. First, you need to find the tiles as described above, then dig them up and determine their sizes and elevations, along with the ditch elevation with a surveyor’s level. Don’t smash them with your backhoe, or you’ve just added another job to the to-do list. Then you can design an interceptor sewer to pick up the tiles and carry the water to the ditch line. The line must be sized correctly to carry the capacity of all the tiles it will intercept. I’d use PVC or HDPE sewer pipe. Sewer lines are usually constructed, starting at the downstream end and working up. It makes for a drier trench. Coordinate the work with the offended farmers. They may be willing to help, and may know where all their tiles are. In any event, it may help to soothe tensions.

Can you do it yourself? Yes, but it’s finicky work to get the pipe to the correct grade and slope. If you’re working in a trench over waist deep, you’ll need to slope back the sides to 1:2 or flatter, or use a trench box to keep you from being buried alive. A friend of a friend of mine’s father was killed in a farm ditch collapse. It’s a bad way to die. Deep trenching may be beyond the ability of your tractor. Handling a trench box almost certainly is.

Talk with your county engineer. He may have resources and advice for you. He may do all the design work, or loan you a survey crew to help you get started.

 

[Windknot]

THANK YOU ALL!!!!!

I had just pictured renting a small tracked excavator and spending two days trenching and then laying some PVC tile.

I guess my next step is to the courthouse and the county drain commission to see if there is any recourse legally to put pressure on the contractor that dug the trenches first, then pursue other options second, third, fourth.

I'll update you all as the news/progress as it comes.

Thanks again,

Windknot aka Sean in Michigan

 

[Phred]

Sean,

If you can get some one else to fix it for free obviosly thats the way to go.

But you can do it yourself with a mini-excavator and laser level.
I did about 500 ft of drain one weekend this way.

Its not as easy as it sounds to get the level right. You need to plan ahead so your not down to deep as you move along.

The process depends on your soil......
but you will want at least 1/4" of drop per foot or ~2-3" per 10' stick of pipe.
I used the black flex pipe for some of it and 4" pvc for some other sections. The PVC is alot more trouble but it drains a lot better.
Dig a trench and line it with landscape/drainage fabric. Add in a foot or so of gravel, the pipe, and then another foot or so of gravel. Finally cover it with the fabric and soil.
Its better if the gravel is ~2" and has no fines.
Here is a good link:
Link
and another
Link

ADS makes some flex pipe with a fabric wrap already in place. This is neat stuff since it saves lots of time.
Link

If you use the PVC get the stuff with the holes and install it with the holes down.
Also if your using PVC sticks it may require/tempt you to get in the trench to mate the sticks togheter. Be careful. People have died from trench cave in accidents and it does not take much trench depth to trap you in the event of a collapse.

Fred

 

[MFChief]

Windknot,

Currmudgeon's advise for an aerial view is excellent, you might take a look at this site. You can put in your address and get a picture of your place. You might get lucky and see something that helps, if not it's still cool to see the big brother view. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/address.aspx


I wish you well with your problem.

Terry